Handgun stopping power

[dubsac]

I think at some point Id called for back up.

 

[zky]

Hard to believe anyone can take that many hits and keep going...hard to believe meaning I'm not sure I believe it. Hit 'em in the knee after 4 or 5 shots and at least get 'em on the ground...

 

[Tactical Dave]

And this is exactly why 9mm vs .45acp arguments are idiotic at best.

There was another story where the BG was shot by numerous (like 117 total hits iirc) .40 S&W & .223 Rem. The police finally tackled him, and he continued to fight hand to hand before they got him in cuffs...... 117 hits, with both pistol and rifle caliber rounds.

You must be more determined than the assailant in order to prevail.

Id take a .22LR over nothing, would take a 9 over a 22, a 40 over a 9 and a 45 over a 40. It's personall prefrence. Anyone that know's me know's that I like to pack teh nastiest round's that I can. I have some 230 gr 45's right now and am most likley going to go to the +P's.

I have no problem's with a 9 that is loaded with a hot load......... do I trust my life with one? Nope, do I think they are perfectly suited for that? Yes.

100+ hit's and the person is stll moving? What are they doing? Shooting the BG in the feet?

The way I see it with the larger round's they will have more knock down power over the smaller stuff...... it may not stop the BG but sure will slow them down more...... with the larger one you also have a greater chance of hiting something critical.

Again all my personal prefrence, some like their 9's and I have to problem with that.

Now if someone breaks into my house you better wish I get to the 45 before I get to something else

At the last southside meet and eat we had a nice chat about this topic, some like 9's and some like larger.

On the .223 556 stuff there is one brand that I would trust for defense, however, I know of someone in this state that loads some NASTY home loaded 223's...........


A lot of people say one round to the head or whatever is all it take's...... many though don't figure in the adrenaline rush...... shooting at paper targets is one thing...... shooting accuratley at someone who chances are is about to shoot you or is shooting at you while your adrenaline is pumping is another..........

Now if people at that confident that in the above situation they will get accurate shot's off then be my gues but you sure hear about a lot more stories about people getting lit up and still coming then people that take a round or two and drop........ that is an argument that you can't really argue .

I say shoot what you are comfortable with, I have shot 9 and am not comfortable with it, to me it is like an over powerd .22LR, personally I myself would not go smaller then a 40 for defense, laugh at me if you want, just how I feel.

 

[JBusch8899]

Id take a .22LR over nothing, would take a 9 over a 22, a 40 over a 9 and a 45 over a 40. It's personall prefrence. Anyone that know's me know's that I like to pack teh nastiest round's that I can.

The round that creates the largest, permanent body tissue cavitation, is the most effective combat/defense round.

The difference is between a leak, and a waterfall.

 

[Jay]

The round that creates the largest, permanent body tissue cavitation, is the most effective combat/defense round.

The difference is between a leak, and a waterfall.

Nope..... the most effective round is the largest one you can put on target....... if it doesn't hit, it doesn't count...... deal with it......

 

[Paco Bedejo]

The way I see it with the larger round's they will have more knock down power over the smaller stuff...... it may not stop the BG but sure will slow them down more...... with the larger one you also have a greater chance of hiting something critical.

Within pistol range, most 40S&W rounds transfer more kinetic energy to the target than most 45ACP rounds...

 

[garagegunmaker]

Found this website with lots of data on stopping power of many different calibers an loads.

Selection of best ammunition for a defensive handgun

 

[salamander42]

FBI handgun ballistics and wounding factors.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

That was a fantastic read. Thank you!

I'm far from being an expert on any of this, but in my limited reading, it does seem that a lot of the "facts" about stopping power are actually opinions, or myth, or are based on data that's flawed in one way or another.

The main thing that I've come away with so far is that the most important thing is to carry what you're comfortable with, and practice with it.

 

[shibumiseeker]

"A weapon is a device for getting your opponent to change their mind."- Lois McMaster Bujold

Blood loss shock can take a minute or many minutes to occur. There's some extremely good physiological reasons why someone can fight on for a minute or more even with a direct hit that ruptures the heart. A chest wound that impacts a lung can take many minutes to hours to kill someone depending on how quickly the pleural space takes to fill with air or blood, if this weren't the case then us EMTs would not save very many trauma patients.

Even a head shot with the fabled .22lr straight between the eyes is not 100%, though most of the higher powered rounds in that same situation will be pretty close.

If I'm carrying a mousegun, it's not so much to stop an assailant, it's to get him to change his mind. If that means pointing it (with intent to use it) and the threat ends there, great. If that means shooting him to at least distract him and give me an advantage in running away, great. If I'm carrying my 10mm, .40, or .45, I'm going for high center of mass shots first to maximize the chances of hitting one of the vital systems, including CNS. I like the rounds that have enough punch to get through the sternum, heart, and spine, with enough energy to sever the spinal cord, thus maximizing my chances of stopping the attack more quickly. I don't expect the assailant to immediately drop to the ground, but I'll be happy if that happens.

 

[pathfinder317]

In a fight or flight situation, most folks will be lucky to hit center mass, much less a CNS shot. Of course I realize that there are multitudes of folks out there who are so proficient as to deliver CNS hits all day, with either hand, while drinking coffee...... what?... oh sure there are...just ask !!!

I'll have to stay with center mass hits, and hope for a CNS impact in there somewhere...... but then again, I'm old

I'd like to see these guys get an adrenaline dump , maybe if they were to sprint 300 yards , then shoot at their target.
I'm guessing they couldn't hit the target at all , they'd be shaking too bad.

 

[Tactical Dave]

From the FBI Link,

They say in the conclusion section that "Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate and individual unless the brain is hit."

How do you explain the people that get shot in the head/brain and still live? It happen's from time to time........


I have heard that in close range the 40's tend to transfer more energy..... I have allways felt that it is not all about energy transfer. Transfer has A LOT to do with it but so does the size hole punched... The energy part comes after the hole punch part if you ask me.... you can turn the insides to mush but if they are trying to get out of the body threw a smaller hose then.......... you get the picture. Granted lethal hit's are what you want before the above...... I could see someone going for a few second's maybe after their heart is hit and not working but not a minute..... I am open to hearing anyones thought's on why ic could happen though.

 

[jimbo-indy]

That does it!
From now on my open carry gun will be the 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun with my favorite max loads. That 250 gr. Barnes TSX hollow point has a cavity that gives new meaning to flying ashtray and at 2200 FPS, I'll bet penetration doesn't suck either.
(Consider the above to be in purple)

 

[JBusch8899]

Nope..... the most effective round is the largest one you can put on target....... if it doesn't hit, it doesn't count...... deal with it......

If it hits the intended target, it may or may not incapacitate the threat. Thus I stand by my original statement of the most effective round being the one that makes the largest, permanent tissue cavitation.

 

[salamander42]

Found this website with lots of data on stopping power of many different calibers an loads.

Selection of best ammunition for a defensive handgun

I'm not saying that there's necessarily anything wrong with any of the info on this site, but it's exactly the kind of thing that was discussed in the FBI article linked to by JBusch8899. They list "One Shot Stopping Success" percentages and "self defense ratings" without any indication of where that data came from or how it was collected. Well, okay, maybe it's in there somewhere. . . I only poked around there for 10 or 15 minutes. . . But if it is it should be somewhere easier to find.

 

[2cool9031]

All I can say....if you are good enough...HEAD SHOT!

 

[sgt.porter]

I don't think many places teach it...everyone seems to teach 2 to the body - one to the head...but I was taught and teach others that if the center mass doesn't work then go lower, not higher. Standing requires skeletal support, if you can break down the pelvis, which isn't cover by a vest btw, the bad guy may still come after you but he will have to crawl to do so. A moving head is a very tough shot but the lower body is not nearly as difficult.

I'm glad someone else learned this way. I try to ignore all the hype about head shots, they're fine for showing off on the range, but in the heat of a fight you don't have the time or steadiness to go for a head shot. 2 in the chest then aim low is the only practical way to quickly stop a BG.

 

[thompal]

I'd like to see these guys get an adrenaline dump , maybe if they were to sprint 300 yards , then shoot at their target.
I'm guessing they couldn't hit the target at all , they'd be shaking too bad.

Heck, at my age, I'd be really satisfied just to be able to sprint 300 yards.

 

[Joe Williams]

If you shoot someone in the vitals 1 shot should do it .

But, it often doesn't. There have been multiple failures to stop, even after ultimately fatal shots, with .38s, 9mms, .40s, .45s, even some with .357 Mags. The bad guy may be a walking dead man, but he's still fighting, which means you have to. A CNS hit is about the only way to put an end to that, but it's an extremely difficult shot to make in a gunfight.

 

[JBusch8899]

If anyone recalls this: 1986 FBI Miami shootout, you'll recall that one of the suspects was mortally wounded, but continued to fight. The will to survive and fight continues until the body is physically unable to continue.

Agents:

• Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor injuries from shotgun pellets.[7]
• Gordon McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
• Edmundo Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun, 5 rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver (S&W, model unknown), 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
• Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
• John Hanlon: S&W Model 36 .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired). Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
• Benjamin Grogan: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 9 rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
• Jerry Dove: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 20 rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
• Ronald Risner: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 13-14 rounds fired, S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 1 round .38 Special +P fired. Uninjured.

Perpetrators:

• William Matix: S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun, 1 round #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
• Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.

A man taking a direct shot to the heart has 10-15 seconds of oxygen left in his brain to sustain fighting.

A man taking a shot to the CNS (central nervous system: brain and/or spinal cord), interrupting neurological functions to the rest of his body, is immediately incapacitated.

Knock down, velocity, etc etc etc.....is a myth. The bigger the permanent hole, the less time it takes for a subject to become incapacitated, unless the placement is the deciding factor.

Nothing else really matters.

 

[BloodEclipse]

I keep one of these in an aquarium and rub my bullets across his back once in awhile.