Hassled by Buffalo Wild Wings for OC at Dupont, Fort Wayne

[ATM]

My right to consume mango habanero wings while ignoring any requests I find trivial and non-binding shall not be infringed.

 

[Kutnupe14]

LOL, Jesus dude, how many times does it have to be explained to you?

It's been expalined to me incorrectly plenty of times already.

 

[ATM]

It's been expalined to me incorrectly plenty of times already.

I'll take another stab at it. It won't help.

"Take that gun out and put it in your car."
No.
"At least cover it up."
No.
"Do not speak again."
Whatever.
"Stand on one foot."
No.
"Put on this jacket."
No.
"Let's see some ID."
No.
"Convert to my religion."
No.
"Try the veal."
No.
"Empty your pockets."
No.
"Is that a banana in your pocket?"
Maybe.
"May I see it?"
No.

"Leave."
OK.

How are most of those "requests" different than the last?

 

[bglaze]

I'll take another stab at it. It won't help.

"Take that gun out and put it in your car."
No.
"At least cover it up."
No.
"Do not speak again."
Whatever.
"Stand on one foot."
No.
"Put on this jacket."
No.
"Let's see some ID."
No.
"Convert to my religion."
No.
"Try the veal."
No.
"Empty your pockets."
No.
"Is that a banana in your pocket?"
Maybe.
"May I see it?"
No.

"Leave."
OK.

How are most of those "requests" different than the last?

precisely.

 

[finity]

Ok, I'm a reasonable person.

I'll compromise...

I'll admit that the owner doesn't have the "right" to make you do anything but leave if you will admit that you don't actually have the "right" to do anything that the owner doesn't want you to do except leave.

That shouldn't be so hard to admit (...since it's true).

The only Right the owner has is to make you leave.

The only Right you have is to leave since you can ultimately be punished for acting against the wishes of the owner. If you had a real right then the owner couldn't make you leave for exercising it.

It's pretty simple.

 

[finity]

I checked in to INGO last night and found lots of subscribed threads with new posts... all from you. Did you take a few days off INGO? I had noticed that there were lots of extra words lying around in your brief absence.

Yeah, I get busy & actually (gasp!) have a life outside of .

I have to check back in occasionally to clean up the riff-raff (& all those extra words that they leave lying around).

 

[Rookie]

Yeah, I get busy & actually (gasp!) have a life outside of .

LIAR! HERETIC! BLASPHEMER!

I think that's a banable offense.

Reported.

 

[finity]

LIAR! HERETIC! BLASPHEMER!

I think that's a banable offense.

Reported.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ok, I'm a reasonable person.

I'll compromise...

I'll admit that the owner doesn't have the "right" to make you do anything but leave if you will admit that you don't actually have the "right" to do anything that the owner doesn't want you to do except leave.

That shouldn't be so hard to admit (...since it's true).

The only Right the owner has is to make you leave.

The only Right you have is to leave since you can ultimately be punished for acting against the wishes of the owner. If you had a real right then the owner couldn't make you leave for exercising it.

It's pretty simple.

I can accept that compromise... gaiz?

 

[Hammerhead]

Ok, I'm a reasonable person.

I'll compromise...

I'll admit that the owner doesn't have the "right" to make you do anything but leave correct if you will admit that you don't actually have the "right" to do anything that the owner doesn't want you to do except leave. No, that's a responsibility, not a right. If I'm asked to leave, I have a duty to do so or be trespassed. I still hold my rights, including the right to ignore stupid requests, even if the owner doesn't approve.

That shouldn't be so hard to admit (...since it's true).

The only Right the owner has is to make you leave. Yes.

The only [STRIKE]Right[/STRIKE] responsibility, duty, expectation you have is to leave since you can ultimately be punished for acting against the wishes of the owner. Only if you consider being asked to leave a punishment. The only real "punishment" is trespass if you don't leave when asked. What other punishment can the owner give you? If you had a real right then the owner couldn't make you leave for exercising it. The owner can make me leave because he doesn't like my shoes. The owner can make me leave for any reason. If he chooses my exercising my rights, so be it. It still doesn't remove my rights, something that can't be taken away.

It's pretty simple.

While your sentiment is understood, your logic is still flawed. The owner can only make me leave. He can't make me do anything else. If he asks me to cover up, and I refuse, and he lets me stay, he'll just have to learn to live with disappointment.

 

[finity]

I'll admit that the owner doesn't have the "right" to make you do anything but leave

correct

if you will admit that you don't actually have the "right" to do anything that the owner doesn't want you to do except leave.

No, that's a responsibility, not a right.

Ummm...OK...

It's your right to leave. He can't keep you from leaving.

Other than that, you have no right to do anything the owner doesn't want you to do. If you did then you could enforce those "rights" through civil litigation or criminal charges (just like you can when the government infringes on your rights). You can't do either, so the right doesn't exist.

So let me get this straight...

You agree that the ONLY right the property owner has is to make you leave but you DISAGREE that the only right YOU have is to leave. By the way you guys are thinking the person who is on someone elses property has more "rights" than the property owner himself.

How does that logic make any sense?

If I'm asked to leave, I have a duty to do so or be trespassed.

And what do you think that "duty" is based on?

It is based on the legal theory that the property owners right to control his property overrides your right to free speech or to bear arms or whatever other right you may think you have.

The reason it was codified into law was to enforce that legal theory against someone who thinks "I have my rights!". No. No you don't.

I still hold my rights, including the right to ignore stupid requests, even if the owner doesn't approve.

An ability to do something does not automatically equate to a right to do that something.

Someone who might rob you certainly has the ability to do it but that doesn't mean he has the right. His rights CEASE (meaning they no longer exist, they have been removed, he no longer holds them) where your right to your own property, & the attendent control thereof, begins.

EVEN IF you do not resist & allow him to take (control of) your property from you, IT STILL DOESN'T MEAN HE HAD THE RIGHT TO ROB YOU.

Similarly, if I do not enforce my right to make you leave my property (IOW, I allow you to take control of my property, especially under duress) it does not, by default, mean that you suddenly had some kind of "right" to continue the action that I disapprove of. It ONLY means I have chosen not to enforce my right against you. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE!

Only if you consider being asked to leave a punishment.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do.

Would you consider it a punishment to be ejected from this country for some action on your part? I think most people would.

If you tried to fight your "punishment" in court & lost it would be based on the fact that you didn't have the "right" to perform that action in the first place, hence you could be punished for it. The chosen punishment in that case is that you would be kicked out.

The only real "punishment" is trespass if you don't leave when asked.

No.

Being "trespassed" is the only legal way he can enforce his right to make you leave when asked. Otherwise that right would have no teeth beyond the owners ability to physically make you leave by overwhelming force (& even if you won you still wouldn't have the right - might does indeed not make "right").

If, in my example above, you refused to accept your punishment (you leaving the country) then the police would come, arrest you & enforce your punishment (you leaving the country). Just like they do when you are asked to leave by a property owner.

Asking you to leave is the punishment. Getting "trespassed" by LE is the enforcement.

Another example:

If you commit a crime, your punishment is jail.

The cops putting you in jail is just the enforcement of that punishment. If you went voluntarily to the jail after your punishment was decided (going to jail) it would still be a punishment. Just not one that had to be physically enforced.

What other punishment can the owner give you?

He's already punished you to the extent allowed by discontinuing your use of his property. "Trespassing" you is simply enforcing his punishment.

The owner can make me leave because he doesn't like my shoes. The owner can make me leave for any reason.

Yup.

That's because you don't have the right (& never had it) to wear shoes on his property that the owner doesn't like.

The only reasons he can't make you leave for are the statutorily created "rights" against discrimination. The ones that didn't exist before they were passed into law.

If he chooses my exercising my rights, so be it.

I think you mean "exercising my rights I would otherwise have if I was not on his property".

It still doesn't remove my rights, something that can't be taken away.

You are correct.

You can't take something away that you never had in the first place.

The owner can only make me leave. He can't make me do anything else. If he asks me to cover up, and I refuse, and he lets me stay, he'll just have to learn to live with disappointment.

Rights aren't based on who can bully who into submission.

It's pretty simple.