HEADS UP...HEADS UP...HEADS UP

[Scutter01]

Sounds like two felonies were committed.

IC 35-47-2.5-15
Ineligible purchaser attempting to purchase handgun; violation
Sec. 15. (a) A person who is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive or possess a handgun in Indiana who knowingly or intentionally solicits, employs, or assists any person in violating section 14 of this chapter commits a Class D felony.
(b) If the violation involves a transfer of more than one (1) handgun, the offense is a Class C felony.
As added by P.L.17-1997, SEC.8.

 

[skydelta34]

Thanks to the OP for the heads up on the phone calls. Proves that finding a reputable buyer with feedback on INGO is the way to go.

 

[Scutter01]

Also, you don't have to have proof that they're not a felon. You just can't sell if you have "a reasonable cause to believe" that they are prohibited:

IC 35-47-2-7
Prohibited sales or transfers of ownership
Sec. 7. (a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10, a person may not sell, give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon (as defined in IC 35-50-2-11) to any person under eighteen (18) years of age.
(b) It is unlawful for a person to sell, give, or in any manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun to another person who the person has reasonable cause to believe:
(1) has been:
(A) convicted of a felony; or
(B) adjudicated a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult, if the person seeking to obtain ownership or possession of the handgun is less than twenty-three (23) years of age;
(2) is a drug abuser;
(3) is an alcohol abuser; or
(4) is mentally incompetent.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.33-1989, SEC.126; P.L.140-1994, SEC.8; P.L.269-1995, SEC.7.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

All of you guys that have bills of sale, and check IDs, and LTCHs, copy all of the info down and file it away and have super secret handshakes etc. to sell a firearm I have to ask a question... WHY???

Do you not believe it is the inalienable right of every person to be armed? Do we not preach on here daily that restrictions to gun ownership should be abolished? I for one believe that guns should be on department store shelves right next to cordless drills and bbq grills. Why put our own restrictions on selling of guns??? We are not regulated by the state or federal government so why put them on there???

We are required to:

1. Sell FTF only to an Indiana resident otherwise go through an FFL.

- The OP did good here, if the guy fully admits he is out of state its a no-go. If he lies- its on him and him alone.

2. Do not KNOWINGLY sell to a restricted person.

- Sir, are you a felon or otherwise restricted from owning or possessing a firearm in Indiana? If he lies- its on him.

 

[Scutter01]

The statute regarding out-of-state face-to-face sales is Federal:

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A: A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(That's from the ATF's FAQ. I linked the statutes but the text is too long to quote here, so you'll have to Google it.)

 

[Scutter01]

All of you guys that have bills of sale, and check IDs, and LTCHs, copy all of the info down and file it away and have super secret handshakes etc. to sell a firearm I have to ask a question... WHY???

I check ID to make sure they're an Indiana resident and I have a bill of sale because it's over $100. The BoS has nothing to do with handguns. I always do a BoS on anything I sell for amounts over $100. Many people ask for an LTCH because it gives them peace of mind that they're not selling to a felon who just lied about it.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and say "it's on them" and wash your hands of it, that's fine, but I prefer to do my best to keep my guns out of the hands of criminals.

 

[lovemachine]

I check ID to make sure they're an Indiana resident and I have a bill of sale because it's over $100. The BoS has nothing to do with handguns. I always do a BoS on anything I sell for amounts over $100. Many people ask for an LTCH because it gives them peace of mind that they're not selling to a felon who just lied about it.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and say "it's on them" and wash your hands of it, that's fine, but I prefer to do my best to keep my guns out of the hands of criminals.

THIS.

 

[lovemachine]

I sold 4 tires and wheels on Craig's List awhile back. And I have a Bill Of Sale.

I keep records of items I have bought. Why shouldn't I keep records of items I sell?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I check ID to make sure they're an Indiana resident

What if its fake? If someone is going to lie, why wouldn't they just get a fake ID?

and I have a bill of sale because it's over $100. The BoS has nothing to do with handguns. I always do a BoS on anything I sell for amounts over $100.

Ok, I can actually see that and as long as its consistant I don't see a problem with it but I still wouldn't

Many people ask for an LTCH because it gives them peace of mind that they're not selling to a felon who just lied about it.

Again, how easy is it to print off a fake LTCH? almost as easy as it is to just lie about it.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and say "it's on them" and wash your hands of it, that's fine, but I prefer to do my best to keep my guns out of the hands of criminals.

How condescending. If I didn't trust the person or had ANY reason to believe that they were not on the up an up I would not sell to them, however I don't see why we are trying to get FEWER restrictions on our rights but amongst ourselves we go above and beyond the law to "cover our butts."

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I sold 4 tires and wheels on Craig's List awhile back. And I have a Bill Of Sale.

I keep records of items I have bought. Why shouldn't I keep records of items I sell?

It seems to me that many people do it specifically for firearms. Many guys on here hate gun registrations yet we all keep the info from our private sales. Just seems silly to me but if you keep records on everything then it would make sense that you would want the same for a firearm not because of what it is but just because it was your property that you sold.

Hope that makes sense now.

 

[KG1]

All of you guys that have bills of sale, and check IDs, and LTCHs, copy all of the info down and file it away and have super secret handshakes etc. to sell a firearm I have to ask a question... WHY???

Do you not believe it is the inalienable right of every person to be armed? Do we not preach on here daily that restrictions to gun ownership should be abolished? I for one believe that guns should be on department store shelves right next to cordless drills and bbq grills. Why put our own restrictions on selling of guns??? We are not regulated by the state or federal government so why put them on there???

We are required to:

1. Sell FTF only to an Indiana resident otherwise go through an FFL.

- The OP did good here, if the guy fully admits he is out of state its a no-go. If he lies- its on him and him alone.

2. Do not KNOWINGLY sell to a restricted person.

- Sir, are you a felon or otherwise restricted from owning or possessing a firearm in Indiana? If he lies- its on him.

^This^ If i'm the seller I'll usually post in the ad that the buyer MUST be 18+, an Indiana resident and be legally able to purchase and own firearms as a condition for sale.

At the most I may ask to see a D/L only to verify residence and or age. If I have any indication that the buyer is not a proper person then the deal is a no-go.

It's usually not to hard to figure out by someones actions.

 

[3point5]

It seems to me that many people do it specifically for firearms. Many guys on here hate gun registrations yet we all keep the info from our private sales. Just seems silly to me but if you keep records on everything then it would make sense that you would want the same for a firearm not because of what it is but just because it was your property that you sold.

Hope that makes sense now.

Personally, I want to glance at an id, and a ltch if available. Yes, it could be fake, but it makes me feel better.

I don't copy anything down. But then again, most guns I have sold have gone to friends or family. Except that one i sold to a guy in chicago, and the other one to that guy that had just gotten out of prison.

 

[Scutter01]

What if its fake? If someone is going to lie, why wouldn't they just get a fake ID?

I can only do so much without access to the same database the police use, and checking ID is one thing I can do. Until and unless the State of Indiana provides ordinary citizens with a way to verify ID, what else can we do?

Again, how easy is it to print off a fake LTCH? almost as easy as it is to just lie about it.

Same as above.

How condescending. If I didn't trust the person or had ANY reason to believe that they were not on the up an up I would not sell to them, however I don't see why we are trying to get FEWER restrictions on our rights but amongst ourselves we go above and beyond the law to "cover our butts."

You're right. After I wrote it, I realized it sounded condescending. That wasn't my intent and I apologize. My point is that I'm not trying to "cover my butt". I do what the law requires, and the law does not require me to look at an LTCH. But from a personal standpoint, I don't ever want to have to deal with a situation where I sold a gun and then later found out it was used to commit a crime, when doing the slightest amount of work on my part may have prevented it. There are no guarantees, but at least I can say that I made the attempt.

 

[eldirector]

however I don't see why we are trying to get FEWER restrictions on our rights but amongst ourselves we go above and beyond the law to "cover our butts."

That's easy. We don't need anyone FORCING us to behave responsibly. We are perfectly capable of being responsible on our own. The law is a minimum requirement for MANY things. Some folks do the minimum (which is perfectly fine), and others go above and beyond. Both are acceptable.

I don't agree that following the law as written is the equivalent of "burying your head". It is doing what is required, and no more.

 

[KG1]

I'm usually more concerned about residence and age. There are plenty of buyers that may be perfectly legal to purchase and own firearms but for whatever reason they do not have an LTCH.

That's why most of the time I don't require to see one as a condition of sale.

 

[Clay]

LOL does anyone actually submit to this?

I sign a bill of sale with my name on it, and firearm info, but you (or anyone else) aren't getting my thumbprint.

Don't know if anyone wants it, but this is a Bill of Sale I use whenever I sell a gun. This combined with ID and LTCH covers me doing my due diligence. By, getting their thumbprint it gives a way to prove who you actually sold it to in case they use false ID.

Bill of Sale​

On Day Month Date, Year, ________________ (Hereafter Seller) (DOB:_______) does hereby sell to ______________________ (Hereafter Buyer) (DOB: __________) one Firearm description, including serial number for the sum of $________. By signing below Seller asserts that he has full legal authority to sell said weapon. Additionally by signing below Buyer hereby certifies and asserts that he is legally entitled to purchase said firearm and is in no way legally barred from purchasing or possessing a firearm. Buyer hereby releases and indemnifies Seller from any and all liability related to his purchase, use, and or possession of this firearm.

Signature of Buyer: _____________________________ Date: _____________
Printed Name of Buyer: __________________________



Buyer’s Right Thumbprint




Signature of Seller: _____________________________ Date: ______________
Seller’s Right Thumbprint

Printed Name of Seller: ___________________________

 

[lovemachine]

Somewhere, I have a printed copy of a PM to Titanium Frost where I bought one of his CC/OC shirts.

I keep everything

I do understand why some people dont like paperwork and BoS's for firearms.
For me, it's just something I like keeping for any items I buy and sell. Force of habit.

When I ask for one, all I put down is what the gun is, Serial#, the buyer and sellers name and phone number, price and signature.
I do ask to see an IN DL and LTCH, but no other info is taken.

 

[Clay]

I always do a BoS on anything I sell for amounts over $100.

just curious as to what the significance of $100 is to have or not have a BoS? is that your number, tax related, other?

 

[Scutter01]

just curious as to what the significance of $100 is to have or not have a BoS? is that your number, tax related, other?

It's the dollar amount that I've arbitrarily chosen as the bottom limit, under which I can't be bothered with if I get screwed. In other words, if I sell something "as is" and the buyer comes back later to complain that it's not pristine, I can show him the BoS where it states "as is" and tell him to get bent*. If it's under $100, I'm just as likely to refund the money and take the item back.


*I don't hide the condition of things I sell. If he had a legitimate complaint, I'd work with him.

 

[printcraft]

Sounds like two felonies were committed.

This /\

IC 35-47-2.5-15
Ineligible purchaser attempting to purchase handgun; violation
Sec. 15. (a) A person who is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive or possess a handgun in Indiana who knowingly or intentionally solicits, employs, or assists any person in violating section 14 of this chapter commits a Class D felony.
(b) If the violation involves a transfer of more than one (1) handgun, the offense is a Class C felony.
As added by P.L.17-1997, SEC.8.

The enforcers are exempt from the law, don't-cha-know?

Right there in the IC it spells out that setting someone up in a "sting"
is a clear violation of the spirit of the law.
Their defense..... "well, we ARE eligible to possess a handgun."

Yes .gov guy, maybe, but you are using deceptive and illegal means to attempt to entrap someone.
"You are knowingly or intentionally solicits, employs, or assists any person in violating section 14 of this chapter AND ARE committing a Class D felony."
But since they are "da law" I guess it does not apply huh?