Here's the Criminal Complaint: USA v Charles F. Ludington (Ludco)

[Destro]

The vast majority of the counts against him are paperwork errors. Missing dates or check boxes.

Thats not how I read it, and it seemed like the ATF was just pointing that out....It seemed they were more concerned about the boxes that were checked by customers that would make that person prohibited. Ignoring
that is a big deal. Being unable to acount for 1000+ firearms is a little more than a missed date. Helping a felon buy a gun is more than an uncrossed T

 

[NIFT]

Just an FYI update:

Fred is still in the Marion County Jail on a no-bond hold by the U.S. Marshalls, as of April 14, 6:00 pm. He might be there a while.

Inmate Information Search

Click on "Public Information" and enter Charles Ludington. Then click on "View" under Details, and then click on "Inmate Charge Information."

 

[Hoosier9]

The vast majority of you have NO IDEA what the paperwork requirements are for dealers. I rolled my eyes at a recent post on another thread that said "Dealers love transfers because they are easy money." NO THEY ARE NOT! I have to chase your gun down, then sit on it until you decide to come and get it, and ANY mistake or error on the 4473 or the bound book entries could mean my license. That's why we went up to $35. We won't take transfers from individuals anymore because they cheat on the shipping and UPS leaves your gun on my doorstep for anyone to steal! (they have no idea what's inside if it's not declared!) I even get LICENSED DEALERS that do the same thing. One more time and the fee goes up to $50!

All I am saying is that there is more to it than meets the eye. Let's see what the facts are in this case before we judge him.

Oh, good God.

Chase a firearm down? What, do they get up and run away from you?
Sit on it? Gee, that's so expensive. How much does it cost you to feed them?

How are paperwork mistakes made on transfers any different from paperwork mistakes made on regular transactions? If you feel unduly stressed because of the requirement of the business that you chose to engage in, perhaps you should get into another line of work. You have to properly fill out paperwork? Oh, the humanity!

If someone lies about what they are shipping, and the gun gets stolen, how is that your problem?

My local dealer does transfers for $20, and did one for $15 the other day. I suppose he's fairly happy in his work, and doesn't need to tack on a surcharge for butthurt remediation.

$50 for a transfer? Good luck with that.

 

[bglaze]

I hope you will all keep a few things in mind. First of all I do not know this shop owner, nor have I ever been to his shop.

The vast majority of the counts against him are paperwork errors. Missing dates or check boxes. In my experience one in ten customers fill out the 4473 form 100% correctly. They put their date of birth for today's day, etc. Many times when I TRY to give specific instructions on how to fill the form out properly I am met with "yeah, yeah yeah, I've done this a thousand times before." I do not recall anyone who ever made comments like that actually filling out the form correctly!

I hope you all realize that while it is the dealer's responsibility to ensure the form is filled out correctly, every time you fill out a form ANY mistake you make that is not caught by the dealer is considered an EGREGIOUS and WILLFUL PAPERWORK VIOLATION as it says in the complaint. There is no such thing as a mistake.

So please.... when you fill out the form, LISTEN to the instructions given by the dealer. How many of you have read the PAGES of instructions attached to the 4473? Next time you are in a shop, ask if you can have a form or a copy of the instructions. READ THEM. And please... when you fill out the form, SLOW DOWN!

Criminal complaints are often filled with every little petty violation they can pile on to make the complaint as inflammatory as possible to ensure they "get" you on something, or to make it so impossible for you to defend against that you will take a plea bargain.

The vast majority of you have NO IDEA what the paperwork requirements are for dealers. I rolled my eyes at a recent post on another thread that said "Dealers love transfers because they are easy money." NO THEY ARE NOT! I have to chase your gun down, then sit on it until you decide to come and get it, and ANY mistake or error on the 4473 or the bound book entries could mean my license. That's why we went up to $35. We won't take transfers from individuals anymore because they cheat on the shipping and UPS leaves your gun on my doorstep for anyone to steal! (they have no idea what's inside if it's not declared!) I even get LICENSED DEALERS that do the same thing. One more time and the fee goes up to $50!

All I am saying is that there is more to it than meets the eye. Let's see what the facts are in this case before we judge him.

Thanks for the input.

 

[2nthechest]

So why would he be on a hold with no bond? What are the charges from? Not being able to account for the firearms, improper paperwork, or the selling to felons and out of state sale?

I was guessing the selling to felons as that is a crime.

I figured the not being able to account for the firearms was a punishable by a fine since they did not charge him last time but gave him a warning?

 

[Roadie]

So why would he be on a hold with no bond? What are the charges from? Not being able to account for the firearms, improper paperwork, or the selling to felons and out of state sale?

I was guessing the selling to felons as that is a crime.

I figured the not being able to account for the firearms was a punishable by a fine since they did not charge him last time but gave him a warning?

Please dont take this the wrong way, but your questions are pretty much answered in the rest of the thread and/or the Criminal Complaint itself..

 

[Fargo]

Exactly.



You're right---it actually predates the US Constitution and was English Common Law. This man ABSOLUTELY is to be deemed "innocent until proven guilty", otherwise, it is IMPOSSIBLE to try him fairly and impartially.

According to a ruling made by SCOTUS, "the presumption of the innocence of a criminal defendant is best described as an assumption of innocence that is indulged in the absence of contrary evidence" (Taylor v. Kentucky, 436 U.S. 478, 98 S. Ct. 1930, 56 L. Ed. 2d 468 [1978]).

IANAA, but it does appear to me that even though the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" is not EXPLICITLY in the Constitution, it has still been deemed valid by SCOTUS.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

The presumption of innocence is definitionally within "due process of law" as adopted by the 14th and 5th Amendments. It absolutely is a constitutional mandate and has been recognized as such since the adoption of the BoR.

It was a fundamental tenet of the common law and was memorialized in the Magna Carta as well as other foundational documents of the common law as it was brought to this country. Many do not know this, but English precedents preceding the Declaration of Independence still technically bind in the US unless otherwise abrogated by statute or by overturning. I know an attorney with the DOJ who has successfully cited such precedents.

If you really want to understand the U.S. Constitution as it was adopted, you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO study the common law system from which it sprang and which defined the terms of art found it. Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Law of England" is usually the starting place for this.

It absolutely is a part of the constitution and I'm a little queasy that a police officer thinks it isn't.

Best,

Joe

 

[Cherryspringer]

I would think that the aft would be obligated to track down these buyers that should not have been able to purchase these weapons n the first place. We don't need weapons in the hands of people that shouldn't have them legally.

 

[seanamus]

I would think that the aft would be obligated to track down these buyers that should not have been able to purchase these weapons n the first place. We don't need weapons in the hands of people that shouldn't have them legally.

LOL good luck finding them...

 

[1911Shooter]

Hey Guys,

First off I will say that I have been going into Ludco for a long time (over 20 Years). I know Fred and I know his personallity. He recieved all of his money from his parents. He is very greedy and kinda an a$$. He can be great to buy from one day and horrible the next.

Fred grew up in Parker City and maybe was feeling a bit to comfortable. I hate to see his shop close because he had a great selection of nearly anything involving guns. I personally dont like the man but it does surpise me a bit, but like I said before he is greedy and Greed must have done him in.

 

[PatriotPride]

The presumption of innocence is definitionally within "due process of law" as adopted by the 14th and 5th Amendments. It absolutely is a constitutional mandate and has been recognized as such since the adoption of the BoR.

It was a fundamental tenet of the common law and was memorialized in the Magna Carta as well as other foundational documents of the common law as it was brought to this country. Many do not know this, but English precedents preceding the Declaration of Independence still technically bind in the US unless otherwise abrogated by statute or by overturning. I know an attorney with the DOJ who has successfully cited such precedents.

If you really want to understand the U.S. Constitution as it was adopted, you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO study the common law system from which it sprang and which defined the terms of art found it. Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Law of England" is usually the starting place for this.

It absolutely is a part of the constitution and I'm a little queasy that a police officer thinks it isn't.

Best,

Joe

Excellent post! Thank you for the clarification. +1.

 

[NIFT]

Just an FYI update:

Fred is still in the Marion County Jail on a no-bond hold by the U.S. Marshalls, as of April 14, 6:00 pm. He might be there a while.

Inmate Information Search

Click on "Public Information" and enter Charles Ludington. Then click on "View" under Details, and then click on "Inmate Charge Information."

The above search no longer gives anything, as of April 15. Perhaps, Fred has bonded out, or he has been moved.

Anyone know?

 

[IndyGunSafety]

Oh, good God.

Chase a firearm down? What, do they get up and run away from you?
Sit on it? Gee, that's so expensive. How much does it cost you to feed them?

How are paperwork mistakes made on transfers any different from paperwork mistakes made on regular transactions? If you feel unduly stressed because of the requirement of the business that you chose to engage in, perhaps you should get into another line of work. You have to properly fill out paperwork? Oh, the humanity!

If someone lies about what they are shipping, and the gun gets stolen, how is that your problem?

My local dealer does transfers for $20, and did one for $15 the other day. I suppose he's fairly happy in his work, and doesn't need to tack on a surcharge for butthurt remediation.

$50 for a transfer? Good luck with that.

Your ignorance is astounding. I wasn't going to dignify it with a response, but ignorance is contagious.

Because morons cheat on the shipping and guns get left on the doorstep, I now have to have EVERYTHING held at FEDEX/UPS. That means I have to go pick up whatever transfers come in. That takes time and gasoline, and both are money. My postal carrier is too lazy to walk 20 feet into our building to deliver a box, which means a special trip to the post office after 5:00 PM when she leaves a slip in the box just outside. Thus "chasing them down".

Transfers are much less profitable and also contain greater risk because of shipping errors and possible theft. As part of the front line of defense against guns getting into the wrong hands, a gun getting stolen from my doorstep is "MY PROBLEM" because it is associated with my shop and my customer. I care about my customers, and about keeping guns out of the hands of prohibited persons, so the "it's not my problem" defense is a poor business (not to mention moral) choice.

Add to this the fact that the "customer" chose to buy the gun elsewhere (when we normally would have been cheaper anyway) and wants to use my professional license to facilitate not buying locally, the "butthurt" surcharge becomes a matter of principle. That's why there are dealers all over this area and the US that charge $75 up to $125 for transfers.... AND PEOPLE PAY IT! I figured by raising my price to $35 (so I could work above minimum wage) my transfers would slow down. Quite to the contrary, they have increased. So I won't be needing your "luck".

I strive to provide good customer service while making a few dollars for my time. Not only is this the American way, IT'S FEDERAL LAW where the ATF is concerned: I can only have my FFL if I am in it for profit.

All I was trying to say is the man is innocent until proven guilty, there is more to being an FFL than the average person realizes, and that a customer's carelessness when filling out a 4473 is a common risk & hazard among dealers. Also, by count, there were way more paperwork violations in the complaint than other types of violations. Nothing in my previous post doubted the validity or seriousness of the charges.

 

[windellmc]

My favorite part of the brief is section 9 where the agent says since they are not allowed to register guns they have to trace them to the original buyers using the record book kept by the FFL. So although it is illegal to register guns they are basically registered to the original owner.

 

[windellmc]

1000 missing guns sounds like more than just a paperwork problem. Given the way that shop looks in the pictures I suppose they could have been stolen?

 

[2nthechest]

I jjust caught Channel 6 news. Seems he had well over 4,000 guns and nearly 600,000 rounds of ammo along with $160,000 in cash. Fred has been released and is on an electronic monitoring device.

I hope the best for him and all involed. I refuse to judge the man for what he may or may not have done. I will be waching this case closely. Although I have not read the entire report from the ATF (as it is LONG), but plan on it this weekend.

Maybe the ATF is RIGHT maybe Fred is RIGHT maybe they are both wrong, either way it is not for me to judge and hope everything works out.

What will they do with all the ammo and firearms when this is done???

 

[thompal]

I'm about to be burned at the stake for this comment.....and the negative reps will be many....but let it be known that if all this is fact

+1 to the BATFE

I wouldn't go THAT far. But I would say -1 to Fred if all of this is true.

Of course, I read the probable cause affidavit that the ATF filed for the Davidian assault. According to ATF, Koresh was a mixture of Jim Jones, Charlies Manson, and Idi Amin.

In the end, THAT fiasco finally came down to Reno saying they did it "for the children," because they were homeschooled and the adults wouldn't turn on the air conditioner (it was record cold in Waco, and the ATF agents at the perimeter were shown wearing winter coats, hats, and gloves).

So, while it SOUNDS bad, we'll have to see how much is truthful.

I'm assuming a wait and see posture.

 

[Hoosier9]

Your ignorance is astounding. I wasn't going to dignify it with a response, but ignorance is contagious.

Because morons cheat on the shipping and guns get left on the doorstep, I now have to have EVERYTHING held at FEDEX/UPS. That means I have to go pick up whatever transfers come in. That takes time and gasoline, and both are money. My postal carrier is too lazy to walk 20 feet into our building to deliver a box, which means a special trip to the post office after 5:00 PM when she leaves a slip in the box just outside. Thus "chasing them down".

Transfers are much less profitable and also contain greater risk because of shipping errors and possible theft. As part of the front line of defense against guns getting into the wrong hands, a gun getting stolen from my doorstep is "MY PROBLEM" because it is associated with my shop and my customer. I care about my customers, and about keeping guns out of the hands of prohibited persons, so the "it's not my problem" defense is a poor business (not to mention moral) choice.

Add to this the fact that the "customer" chose to buy the gun elsewhere (when we normally would have been cheaper anyway) and wants to use my professional license to facilitate not buying locally, the "butthurt" surcharge becomes a matter of principle. That's why there are dealers all over this area and the US that charge $75 up to $125 for transfers.... AND PEOPLE PAY IT! I figured by raising my price to $35 (so I could work above minimum wage) my transfers would slow down. Quite to the contrary, they have increased. So I won't be needing your "luck".

I strive to provide good customer service while making a few dollars for my time. Not only is this the American way, IT'S FEDERAL LAW where the ATF is concerned: I can only have my FFL if I am in it for profit.

All I was trying to say is the man is innocent until proven guilty, there is more to being an FFL than the average person realizes, and that a customer's carelessness when filling out a 4473 is a common risk & hazard among dealers. Also, by count, there were way more paperwork violations in the complaint than other types of violations. Nothing in my previous post doubted the validity or seriousness of the charges.

No ignorance here. YOU are the one who doesn't have time to take delivery of items that you deal with in commerce during normal business/delivery hours, apparently. If you are overwhelmed with items left at your door, perhaps you need to devote more time to your business. That being said, it is STILL the fault of the shipper who lies about what he is shipping, if the item gets stolen. Don't shipping regulations require overnight and/or a signature? How do you receive your normal inventory shipments without having to "chase them down?"

If you are distraught over guns getting into the hands of "prohibited persons," then maybe you should apply to be an ATF agent, instead of sort of halfway running a business where you can't receive shipments of goods in a proper and timely manner. As a bonus, I've never heard of a federal employee whining about making little more than "minimum wage." AND you could realistically claim to be the "first line of defense" against guns in the hands of bad people. I think it's a bit much for an FFL to think he's the first line of defense against anything. It's a business, not a Captain America comic fantasy.

I am aware of NO gun shop that charges $75 - $125 for a transfer in the Indianapolis area, and I would think that unless you live out in an area where the nearest gun shop is 100 miles away and the only game in town, you'd have to be an idiot to pay that much.

You're ticked because people don't buy locally, and you can get the same gun for me cheaper? Great! Quote me a price on a blued 4" Colt Python .357. You do have those in stock, or can order them, right? I'd even be happy to buy your "principles" for $35, since that's what they are apparently worth.

BTW, disregard my suggestion that you apply to be an ATF agent. Apparently, they need to be able to fill out simple forms and check them for accuracy without crying about it.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

BTW, disregard my suggestion that you apply to be an ATF agent. Apparently, they need to be able to fill out simple forms and check them for accuracy without crying about it. I am aware of NO gun shop that charges $75 - $125 for a transfer in the Indianapolis area

I love it. The more you run your mouth the more stupid you look, while I run up reps from other shop owners for smacking you down. I'm sorry, no ATF application forthcoming. My job as an airline captain is much more rewarding and demanding of my skill and education... and it pays much better!

Also, the BATFE and the National Shooting Sports Foundation together state that FFL's are the "First line of defense". I make no apologies for taking that seriously.

Oh, and Don's Guns charges $100 for a transfer. So please continue to open your mouth and remove all doubt as to whether you have any idea what you are talking about.

 

[Glockster1990]

To the other gun store owners in central Indiana:

Please take note and avoid the pitfalls that Fred fell into. Not only the criminal allegations, but also the seemingly massive record keeping blunders.

I am not among the Fred bashers. I actually loved his store. He kept in stock a lot of rare and obscure firearms that I was always interested in. I was able to hold in my hands a lot of cool guns that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise--no other shop has a comparable inventory. Lol, I mean he had stuff in his shop that you couldn't find at the 1500 on a good day!

I also saw through Fred's sometimes abrasive facade to a man who has been running the same small business for 40 years and has become very set in his ways.

My first firearm purchase was at his store, and I have made a lot of very positive memories there. I do not excuse criminal malfeasance. But even if he is convicted and guilty of all charges, I will miss him and his store dearly.

Nevertheless, I don't want to lose ANY MORE gun shops to the ATF's christmas tree; so please, for all of our sakes, keep on the up and up!!!

DIDO TO what he said!