High end rifle. AR or AK?

[BigRed3588]

OK, so this one has run long enough I don't think I'll be guilty of derailing the thread too badly. Lots of good posts in this one with regards to good/very good AR/AK platforms, and I'd kind of like to know how you guys think the Tavor SAR compares to these rifles? I have fired a few different AR's and liked 'em... then fired a Tavor and fell in love. So my opinion is going to be very biased. I'm curious what the consensus here is though? How "high end" does it compare favorably to??

Apologies to the KT87 for sidetracking! And in that line of thought, have you ever considered the Tavor, KT? I know not everyone likes or even tolerates bullpups though.

I’m a fan of bullpups and really enjoyed shooting my Tavor, but I wouldn’t put it in the same category as a “high end” AR. IMO, the Tavor is bulky, unbalanced, and has a fairly substandard trigger. I didn’t have any issues with accuracy as I could easily ping an 8x8 plate with irons at 200 yards, but I’ve been able to achieve the same level of accuracy with a budget AR build and would much rather train with the AR. I’d really only give the Tavor the edge for having a gas piston system.

 

[Ggreen]

I love my LMT but have heard some unflattering things about KAC. My girlfriends father used to work for them as a machinist and basically said quality control was a recurring issue because they were more concerned with profit margin than quality (e.g. laying off their more experienced people and hiring novices at half the salary). He’s also shared info on some shady business practices, but I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if those practices were at the government’s behest.

I know of a handful of qc issues that left the factory in batches, but all of them have been owned and addressed. If I had 2 rifles on a track and could only take one I'd grab the sr15 over the lmt. Any gov contact based business is going to have aggressive numbers ppl adjusting staff to keep the doors open. I've seen it in every military industry.


And your dead on about the favor. I was in a social circle with a few documented Israeli operator types. They all claim the mil holds onto the design almost as a marketing tool to get imi to sell them to the civilian market here. They all preferred ak or ar.

 

[kawtech87]

Finally got a chance to fondle the rifle at length other than a quick once over at the gun shop before the paperwork. I picked it up on the way to work last night. I can already tell this is the highest quality rifle I own by a wide margin. Nothing shakes, nothing rattles, everything pops and snaps with very tactile and audible clicks. There are no washers or rubber grommets in the receiver preventing wiggle just good old fashioned quality machine work.

 

[Bighoss91]

Since the thread has already been slightly derailed I have a question. I'm working on finishing up my cross machine build and looking for a barrel. I just about down to Criterion as my choice but everything is on a hard back order for 2-3 months. I'm wanting to use a 13.9 or 14.5 core series barrel. The real question is it worth the wait or should I just settle for a BA Hanson "equivalent"? Wondering from someone with hands on Criterion experience or I'm open to other suggestions.

Ps can't wait to see that LMT on here bet it's a sweet piece.

 

[eric001]

I’m a fan of bullpups and really enjoyed shooting my Tavor, but I wouldn’t put it in the same category as a “high end” AR. IMO, the Tavor is bulky, unbalanced, and has a fairly substandard trigger. I didn’t have any issues with accuracy as I could easily ping an 8x8 plate with irons at 200 yards, but I’ve been able to achieve the same level of accuracy with a budget AR build and would much rather train with the AR. I’d really only give the Tavor the edge for having a gas piston system.

No arguments on the trigger--when I bought mine from another INGOer, it came with a geissele trigger pack already installed. Apples and oranges to the original trigger pack. Mine is accurate enough to chase dirt clods and such at 200yds using iron sights, though my eyes are not anywhere close to good enough to see holes in paper at that range. I have a lot of fun with it--when I have replaceable ammo to feed it--and just wondered how it ranked against AR's between "low end" and "high end" in the experiences and opinions of those who have way more knowledge of such things than me.
And I think the real edge over my AK (other than accuracy) is when it comes time for cleaning after a good range day--the Tavor is way easier and quicker than that AK, even if I've been shooting cheap and dirty ammo in both.

Oh, and I absolutely second the opinion above--love to see pics of the LMT. I'm always up for good gun porn!!

 

[IUKalash429]

when it comes time for cleaning after a good range day--the Tavor is way easier and quicker than that AK

AKs are easier to clean, because you don't need to clean them.

How do you clean a Tavor? With an AK, all it takes is a boresnake down the barrel, a quick wipe of the bolt face and gas piston, and you're done. Don't overcomplicate things. The last time I cleaned an AK (I think it was 2015), it took all of two minutes.

 

[Ggreen]

AKs are easier to clean, because you don't need to clean them.

How do you clean a Tavor? With an AK, all it takes is a boresnake down the barrel, a quick wipe of the bolt face and gas piston, and you're done. Don't overcomplicate things. The last time I cleaned an AK (I think it was 2015), it took all of two minutes.

Bingo. I only clean the ar's after multiple trips suppressed. The ak's and Glocks get wiped off when I get dirty from touching them

 

[eric001]

Meh... I'm a bit of a neat freak. I don't fully strip 'em and clean everything like factory new, but it just makes me feel better to field strip or at least clean the crud out of moving parts of all my guns after a few hundred rounds. Works for me. Kind of a zen thing I guess.

 

[knutty]

Don't forget to clean out the AK gas tube. They will rust up on the inside, even with non corrosive ammo. Ask me how I know.

A 20 gauge brush with a patch works great. 2 minute job.

I'm not OCD about cleaning but all my guns get field stripped and wiped down after firing. Bores get deep cleaned every 2k rounds or so. Any firearm worth owning is worth keeping maintained.

 

[HonkieKowboy]

AKs are easier to clean, because you don't need to clean them.

How do you clean a Tavor? With an AK, all it takes is a boresnake down the barrel, a quick wipe of the bolt face and gas piston, and you're done. Don't overcomplicate things. The last time I cleaned an AK (I think it was 2015), it took all of two minutes.

Unless if you're a sucker who brought corrosive 7.62x39... like me.

 

[patience0830]

Please don't take this wrong in any way.

Having seen the truly high quality rifles, like Weatherby rifles that were custom built by Roy Weatherby himself, or fine double rifles made by James Purdy & Sons. Even the "F" grade Winchester products with wood that you could think worthy of an altar in heaven. I have seen Fabbri shotguns that took $250,000 down payment. Some of the old school Sauer high end rifles were fantastic workmanship and detail.

It is hard for me to think of bent sheet metal or cast aluminum and plastic combat rifles as "high end". I really do understand that they can be made to shoot accurately and perform well but they cannot hide their combat rifle roots.

Sako S20. Let's get real here.

 

[IUKalash429]

Unless if you're a sucker who brought corrosive 7.62x39... like me.

A bottle of water or a bladder of pee over the bolt and down the gas tube and barrel, followed by a few more fired rounds of non-corrosive pills to dry everything off. Done. You don't even need to disassemble.

 

[firefighterjohn]

Finally got a chance to fondle the rifle at length other than a quick once over at the gun shop before the paperwork. I picked it up on the way to work last night. I can already tell this is the highest quality rifle I own by a wide margin. Nothing shakes, nothing rattles, everything pops and snaps with very tactile and audible clicks. There are no washers or rubber grommets in the receiver preventing wiggle just good old fashioned quality machine work.

Wow, sounds awesome. I just looked up their website and saw the NZ model...whoa..great specs and truly high end. Sure hope you get a chance to put it thru it's paces at the range soon. Congrats!

 

[308jake]

AKs are easier to clean, because you don't need to clean them.

How do you clean a Tavor? With an AK, all it takes is a boresnake down the barrel, a quick wipe of the bolt face and gas piston, and you're done. Don't overcomplicate things. The last time I cleaned an AK (I think it was 2015), it took all of two minutes.

My AKs love Kodiak as a lube….spit till it fits

 

[Goodcat]

I've been away for a bit enjoying time with my newborn son and come back to find this place pretty much the same. Lots of arguments and thread derails and familiar names posting familiar stuff. And some new ones too.

Anyway glad you all haven't changed for better or worse

I'm thinking about picking up a truly Gucci tier off the shelf rifle. Why? Because I want one and I don't have time to build one right now. But I'm a little concerned about quality of the stuff being put out right now. Is it really up to standard or are they just pumping stuff out in a hurry to make money? I've read where Wilson Combat is putting out Protector models that don't have the parts spec'd on their website and still charging 2k for the rifle. Inferior BCGs, shorter rails, poorly fitted receivers and so on. Geissele seems to have hit and miss reviews too. DD is still pumping out M4V7s but I'm wondering about the quality. If any one has any info on current quality of these guns please post it up. Thanks

Brands I'm looking at are:
Geissele
Daniel Defense
Wilson Combat
ADM
POF
NEMO

Or I may just say screw it and get an ARSENAL SAM7R-61

Thoughts?

I would say all brands are pretty high up there. I’d tip Daniel Defense and Wilson Combat (stick to handguns guys) to the bottom of the list.

Also, as mentioned KAC and LMT are on top of that group.

Consider Centurion too. They are made in Indiana, top notch CS, and the best kept secret in the Gucci industry, their CM4 builds are absolutely insane and the cleanest borescope I’ve ever seen, putting Daniel Defense to shame. They also do MK12 barrels. Monty spent his life running them and his wife Corrie is top notch at CS. My wife’s Gucci build is almost strictly Centurion. Here’s my ADM UIC build, full of Forward Control Designs parts, Modlite, Razor Gen III, 45 RMR, etc. Feel free to ask if I can help you along your journey for Gucci parts.

 

[Goodcat]

Since the thread has already been slightly derailed I have a question. I'm working on finishing up my cross machine build and looking for a barrel. I just about down to Criterion as my choice but everything is on a hard back order for 2-3 months. I'm wanting to use a 13.9 or 14.5 core series barrel. The real question is it worth the wait or should I just settle for a BA Hanson "equivalent"? Wondering from someone with hands on Criterion experience or I'm open to other suggestions.

Ps can't wait to see that LMT on here bet it's a sweet piece.

Criterion barrels are absolutely worth the wait, and their weight, in gold.

 

[Hookeye]

Be a man among men........

Baby poop camo a DSA 58. LOL

 

[Gingerbeardman]

Nobody mentioned Falkor Defense. I watched as he did development on the Petra, a .300 Win Mag AR and was really impressed.

 

[kawtech87]

Took the LMT out to the range today. It's sights are right on from factory (thanks LMT) was ringing steel with ease at 100yds. 200 was pretty regular rings if I took my time Was high and left on paper out to 300 but that's the first time I've ever tried shooting 300 with irons but was still on paper. I'm very happy with this rifle. Smooth as butter. I've ordered the FAB defense folding foregrip, which is as best I can tell the one the Kiwis run and I'm probably going to put a 1-6 Vcog on it. I know it's not what the Kiwis use but I figured I'd go ahead and update their optics for them. I promise I'll post pics... eventually. Maybe. If I feel like learning the new format features.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Took the LMT out to the range today. It's sights are right on from factory (thanks LMT) was ringing steel with ease at 100yds. 200 was pretty regular rings if I took my time Was high and left on paper out to 300 but that's the first time I've ever tried shooting 300 with irons but was still on paper. I'm very happy with this rifle. Smooth as butter. I've ordered the FAB defense folding foregrip, which is as best I can tell the one the Kiwis run and I'm probably going to put a 1-6 Vcog on it. I know it's not what the Kiwis use but I figured I'd go ahead and update their optics for them. I promise I'll post pics... eventually. Maybe. If I feel like learning the new format features.

Posting pics is easier than ever with the new format. If you can copy/paste, you can post pics. No need for third party hosting, uploading or any of that.