Hospital carry?

[MikeDVB]

Yes, we are a picky lot.

Normally I'd spell it all out with all of the various ICs and such and explain it but meh, do some research if you want to know why it's not legal to carry at Wishard and you don't wish to take my word for it!

 

[ATM]

I'm sure they do have a local rule and can enforce it, my only issue was with citing the exception as that rule.

The actual gun restriction there won't likely be found in the IC.

 

[MikeDVB]

I'm sure they do have a local rule and can enforce it, my only issue was with citing the exception as that rule.

The actual gun restriction there won't likely be found in the IC.

Yeah - I should have just taken the time to be more clear.

Ah well.

The metal detectors at the ER entrance, assuming that's where the person goes, would be a huge clue. Not sure about other entrances.

 

[bwframe]

Alrighty then, now that we are clear as mud on that, lets rehash;

Is the whole hospital or just a part of it against the law to actually carry in? What are the metal detector specifics?
Is this law actually enforced? Are carriers arrested or asked to leave?
Do we have any actual real info on this from officers, staff, patrons?

 

[MikeDVB]

Is the whole hospital or just a part of it against the law to actually carry in? What are the metal detector specifics?

To simplify - they are granted an exemption from the law which does allow them to legally exclude carry. I would assume, but you can call and verify if you wish, that their policy that you cannot carry is not specific to any particular part of the facility and covers their entire facility.

Is this law actually enforced? Are carriers arrested or asked to leave?

I wouldn't want to be the test case but I would assume you would be arrested just as if you tried to bring a firearm into a jail.

Do we have any actual real info on this from officers, staff, patrons?

Call Wishard and talk to security and ask them - they will be able to set you straight and I'm almost certain it will be, 'You cannot legally carry a gun in this Hospital and you will be arrested if you attempt to do so.'

 

[Dirtebiker]

They meet the guidelines of a location that is exempted from the law that prevents places from prohibiting you from carrying. I.e. the sign on their door that says no firearms permitted does, in this case, carry the weight of law indirectly.

Bunny is right that it's not the sign that makes it illegal for you to carry but the law itself - but saying that the sign, in this case, carries the weight of law is also not inaccurate because they can, and will, arrest you and put you in jail for carrying there [i.e. if you ignore this particular sign].

like you said, it not about the sign! And it IS inaccurate to say.
I'm sure in these specific cases, the signs are more than a representation of a gun with a red circle and a line through it. I'm assuming the sign spells out the law.
If you by chance, didn't see or read the sign, or you were illiterate, in MOST of these places you'd have to go through metal detectors. At that point you would be told that you can't enter.
So to say that the sign really means anything, or that you would be arrested for disregarding a sign, is pretty far fetched!
Eta: yes we are picky! Shouldn't we be when it comes to the law?

 

[MikeDVB]

like you said, it not about the sign! And it IS inaccurate to say.

So ignore the sign - go to jail. Doesn't matter if you are yelling, 'The sign doesn't carry the weight of law!' while they're putting the cuffs on you.

I'm sure in these specific cases, the signs are more than a representation of a gun with a red circle and a line through it. I'm assuming the sign spells out the law.

It doesn't have to - the sign doesn't have to exist at all for it to be illegal for you to carry there.

If you by chance, didn't see or read the sign, or you were illiterate, in MOST of these places you'd have to go through metal detectors. At that point you would be told that you can't enter.
So to say that the sign really means anything, or that you would be arrested for disregarding a sign, is pretty far fetched!

Go ahead and be the test case.

 

[Dirtebiker]

To simplify - they are granted an exemption from the law which does allow them to legally exclude carry. I would assume, but you can call and verify if you wish, that their policy that you cannot carry is not specific to any particular part of the facility and covers their entire facility.

I wouldn't want to be the test case but I would assume you would be arrested just as if you tried to bring a firearm into a jail.

Call Wishard and talk to security and ask them - they will be able to set you straight and I'm almost certain it will be, 'You cannot legally carry a gun in this Hospital and you will be arrested if you attempt to do so.'

Being "picky" again. But "I assume" that if you did "attempt" to carry a gun into one of these exempted places, you would not be arrested for that action! I'm sure you would be told that it is illegal, and like any other kind of trespass, be given the chance to leave. If then, you refuse, you could, and possibly would be arrested.

 

[Dirtebiker]

So ignore the sign - go to jail. Doesn't matter if you are yelling, 'The sign doesn't carry the weight of law!' while they're putting the cuffs on you.

It doesn't have to - the sign doesn't have to exist at all for it to be illegal for you to carry there.

Go ahead and be the test case.

Of course the sign doesn't have to exist for it to be illegal! That's my point. But they would have to inform you somehow. And when they do, I'm sure you would have the opportunity to remove yourself or your weapon.
i won't be the test case! I know about the law, and I have no plans to ever enter!

 

[MikeDVB]

Being "picky" again. But "I assume" that if you did "attempt" to carry a gun into one of these exempted places, you would not be arrested for that action! I'm sure you would be told that it is illegal, and like any other kind of trespass, be given the chance to leave. If then, you refuse, you could, and possibly would be arrested.

Just as you could get stopped for speeding and get a warning - I wouldn't bet my freedom on it because they do not have to let you walk out with your firearm.

Of course the sign doesn't have to exist for it to be illegal! That's my point.

Was it?

But they would have to inform you somehow.

Can you show me where in the law they are legally required to make you aware that it is illegal to carry there? Do remember that ignorance isn't a defense.

And when they do, I'm sure you would have the opportunity to remove yourself or your weapon.

Replace Hospital with Government or Federal Building - would you still be so sure? Once you've broken the law you can be arrested they do not have to give you an opportunity to leave.

i won't be the test case! I know about the law, and I have no plans to ever enter!

Probably a wise decision.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Just as you could get stopped for speeding and get a warning - I wouldn't bet my freedom on it because they do not have to let you walk out with your firearm.

Was it?

Can you show me where in the law they are legally required to make you aware that it is illegal to carry there? Do remember that ignorance isn't a defense.

Replace Hospital with Government or Federal Building - would you still be so sure? Once you've broken the law you can be arrested they do not have to give you an opportunity to leave.

Probably a wise decision.

Ok, actually my point was that signs don't carry any weight.
can you show me anyone who has been arrested simply for carrying a gun into a building that is off limits? Without being given the chance to rectify the issue?
I would be just as sure in any government building. You walk up to the metal detectors, and if you haven't realized yet that it will be a problem, I'm guessing that security would spell it out to you. Again assuming (I've never been in the situation), they would give you the opportunity to leave, and not just arrest you immediately.
Can someone please show me how to answer a quote, line by line?

 

[bwframe]

Alrighty then, now that we are clear as mud on that, lets rehash;

Is the whole hospital or just a part of it against the law to actually carry in? What are the metal detector specifics?
Is this law actually enforced? Are carriers arrested or asked to leave?
Do we have any actual real info on this from officers, staff, patrons?

To simplify - they are granted an exemption from the law which does allow them to legally exclude carry. I would assume, but you can call and verify if you wish, that their policy that you cannot carry is not specific to any particular part of the facility and covers their entire facility.

I wouldn't want to be the test case but I would assume you would be arrested just as if you tried to bring a firearm into a jail.

Call Wishard and talk to security and ask them - they will be able to set you straight and I'm almost certain it will be, 'You cannot legally carry a gun in this Hospital and you will be arrested if you attempt to do so.'

Mike,

Thank you so much for your OPINION on this subject!
Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear from others. Maybe, as asked for above, some real world experiences from those who have been exposed to this?
Yes, I could well be a test case for this. Positively knowing where I stand is important.

 

[jbombelli]

The sign is not what carries the weight. The Indiana Code is what carries the weight. I have not found anything in the code that states a prohibited place is required to post a no-guns sign. So most likely they aren't required to post it. If they post a sign, it's just to do you a favor. As a LTCH holder it is YOUR responsibility to know where you can and cannot carry - it is not THEIR responsibility to tell you.

Now, when it comes to signs and weight of law... in previous discussions around here, if I recall correctly, it was concluded that if a sign is worded very specifically, it might indeed have weight behind it.

"No Guns" doesn't mean you can't come in. It's not barring entry. In no way does it say you cannot come in. Breaking a facility's rules is not the same as trespassing.

Now if it said something like "Any person in possession of a firearm is hereby denied entry into this facility" or something else that specifically denies someone entry, then it MIGHT actually have sufficient weight behind it.

No Trespassing - denial of entry
No Admittance - denial of entry
Authorized Personnel Only - denial of entry to those who aren't "authorized"
MikeDVB is banned from the premises - denial of entry for MikeDVB.

No Guns - NOT denial of entry.

If you break a facility's rules, their redress is to require that you leave. If you refuse to leave when told to do so, THEN you are trespassing.

That is my understanding of the situation.


Now, if ANYONE can find a trespassing case wherein someone with a firearm was arrested, charged, and convicted of criminal trespass for being in a non-prohibited place (i.e. not prohibited by statute) with a posted no-guns sign, without ever having been asked to leave the facility first, I'll be happy to read it. But I found nothing. My lawyer found nothing. Nobody I've ever talked to has ever found a single instance of this happening.

 

[ATM]

...Yes, I could well be a test case for this. Positively knowing where I stand is important.

Maybe somebody could find and post Wishard's actual rule, policy or ordinance on this matter.

All of the discussion seems to be revolving around the code which allows them to have and enforce such a policy, but I haven't seen a single cite of their rules or the possible consequences of violating them.

I know that most local ordinances and rules just have fines associated with violations, not jail time.

 

[El-Cigarro]

Maybe somebody could find and post Wishard's actual rule, policy or ordinance on this matter.

All of the discussion seems to be revolving around the code which allows them to have and enforce such a policy, but I haven't seen a single cite of their rules or the possible consequences of violating them.

I know that most local ordinances and rules just have fines associated with violations, not jail time.

Someone here once said they have some kind of a Detention Center there, and that's why you can't pack there....

 

[ATM]

Someone here once said they have some kind of a Detention Center there, and that's why you can't pack there....

Right. The secure facility is what allows them to enforce a rule prohibiting weapons. But what is the text of that restriction and what are the consequences of violating it?

I don't think either of those are to be be found in IC because Indiana law does not prohibit it, it simply allows for such a prohibition in a public hospital with a secure facility.

Heck, it could just be as minor as a fine if you're caught violating their rule (like spitting on the sidewalk or something equally trivial).

 

[printcraft]

Just wanting to post for posteriors sake...........

I carry everywhere I "legally" can.
There is no hollowed ground where crime and criminals are concerned.
Signage carries no force of law. Yes you can be ASKED to leave and trespassed if you do not.

It the mods didnt give wrist slaps, there'd be more tumbleweeds than posters.
(I'd still be her though)

Her who? Freudian slip?

 

[Lectric102002]

Just wanting to post for posteriors sake...........

Whose posterior, yours, or ours ?

There is no hallowed ground where crime and criminals are concerned.

FIFY

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Just wanting to post for posteriors sake...........

I carry everywhere I "legally" can.
There is no hollowed ground where crime and criminals are concerned.
Signage carries no force of law. Yes you can be ASKED to leave and trespassed if you do not.




Her who? Freudian slip?

Did you mean Frederick's of Hollywood?

 

[GlockFox]

For those of you who think you will be arrested, what section of Indiana Code states that you can't carry in a hospital. Let me save you some time: it doesn't exist. Policy and law are two very different things.

Now for the original OP. Listen I love to carry and respect everyones right to carry. However, you need to ask yourself a couple of questions. Are you willing to take your kid to another hospital because you don't believe in the no carry policy at Riley's (if you can find one that will allow you to carry)? Secondly, in the case that you wear it and get caught and are asked to leave, will you be willing to leave your kid and not be able to visit them? Sure you could stand your ground and say I'm not leaving but then you will be criminally trespassed and still not be able to vsit your child.

Carry at your own discretion but pick your battles. I would hate to hear that your kid didn't get the treatment they needed or that you were unable to be there to support them. Apart from the gun thing, I wish your kid the best of luck and a healthy return.