I have been reinforcing my decision to never again fly in an airplane.

[chipbennett]

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".

I know a bit about statistics. I also know that you can boil them down to smaller populations or scale them up to larger populations and change the probability of certain events occuring. While the overall percentage of an unfavorable outcome during flight is very small, there is a subset of people who fly who you can assert have had a zero chance of any incidents or accidents occuring. There is also a subset of the flying population who can be shown to have had a 100% chance of experiencing and insident or accident.

The question becomes, which subset do you think you might eventually fall into?

I really can't control which group I eventually fall into - the same is true for driving, for what it's worth.

 

[Ingomike]

Delta prides themselves on their percentage of first class seats that are revenue (purchased fare class, cash/miles upgrades) rather than complimentary upgrade. I think it's something like 80% revenue now, when ten years ago it was more like 20%? Combined with how full the planes are now, consistently, and status upgrades to first class are fewer and farther between.

Isn't this self fulfilling? The more crowded the planes become the more passengers that are likely to want the comfort of first class…

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Frequent death tubers:

Other than the obvious answer of London, Amsterdam, and maybe Munich, any good layover cities to spend 48-72 hours or so in?

Trying to plot a trip to Athens anywhere from Oct-Dec time frame. I found some tickets for $700 round trip out of IND, but they require connecting in Boston and London so breaking the trip into legs makes sense. Staying in London for 2-3 days doesn't add significantly to the ticket cost, but we've been to London and it's expensive AF as I remember it.

Prefer to stick with OneWorld alliance airlines, but not a hard requirement.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Isn't this self fulfilling? The more crowded the planes become the more passengers that are likely to want the comfort of first class…

Without getting too far in the weeds, Delta decided to noticeably reduce the cost of an upgraded seat with the assumption less profit per seat but more seats sold was better for the bottom line. Other airlines have taken a different approach and continue to price out more customers but with a better chance of an upgrade, encouraging loyalty and status chasing. Delta is an airline with a banking system attached. AA is a banking system that happens to fly airplanes.

 

[chipbennett]

Frequent death tubers:

Other than the obvious answer of London, Amsterdam, and maybe Munich, any good layover cities to spend 48-72 hours or so in?

Trying to plot a trip to Athens anywhere from Oct-Dec time frame. I found some tickets for $700 round trip out of IND, but they require connecting in Boston and London so breaking the trip into legs makes sense. Staying in London for 2-3 days doesn't add significantly to the ticket cost, but we've been to London and it's expensive AF as I remember it.

Prefer to stick with OneWorld alliance airlines, but not a hard requirement.

I would think Paris CDG would be on the list, as well? Maybe Dublin, if you can connect through DUB.

Where are OneWorld's EU hubs?

 

[chipbennett]

Isn't this self fulfilling? The more crowded the planes become the more passengers that are likely to want the comfort of first class…

I'm not certain how much the two are correlated, because there's also been a huge growth in Basic Economy tickets (that come with absolutely nothing and aren't upgradeable).

 

[chipbennett]

Without getting too far in the weeds, Delta decided to noticeably reduce the cost of an upgraded seat with the assumption less profit per seat but more seats sold was better for the bottom line. Other airlines have taken a different approach and continue to price out more customers but with a better chance of an upgrade, encouraging loyalty and status chasing. Delta is an airline with a banking system attached. AA is a banking system that happens to fly airplanes.

It depends on the fare class and method of purchase/upgrade. The cash (and upgrade) prices for Premium Select, First Class, and Delta One are/can be downright absurd. Comfort+ seems to be available for pretty cheap upgrade, usually.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I would think Paris CDG would be on the list, as well? Maybe Dublin, if you can connect through DUB.

Where are OneWorld's EU hubs?

London and Madrid are the major ones. Dublin and Helsinki are hubs as well, but I don't see any flights from the US routing through them.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It depends on the fare class and method of purchase/upgrade. The cash (and upgrade) prices for Premium Select, First Class, and Delta One are/can be downright absurd. Comfort+ seems to be available for pretty cheap upgrade, usually.

For my budget, I agree. But I think they are less absurd than most other domestic carriers and that was their stated business model.

 

[Ingomike]

I'm not certain how much the two are correlated, because there's also been a huge growth in Basic Economy tickets (that come with absolutely nothing and aren't upgradeable).

Maybe I am the only one that is uncomfortable on full planes in the cheap seats and that is just another factor to consider in my decision on first class or not. I can see full planes leading to more sales of first class, but that is just my thinking and that of a few I know.

Which coincidentally often aligns with physical size. A couple I know that are both short and under BMI think cheap seats are great and cannot fathom why their larger friends hate them. LOL

 

[two70]

Maybe I am the only one that is uncomfortable on full planes in the cheap seats and that is just another factor to consider in my decision on first class or not. I can see full planes leading to more sales of first class, but that is just my thinking and that of a few I know.

Which coincidentally often aligns with physical size. A couple I know that are both short and under BMI think cheap seats are great and cannot fathom why their larger friends hate them. LOL

No, you're not the only one. I flew business class when I went to South Africa for the first two legs of trip going and the last two coming back. I don't think I would want to suffer flights that long in the cheap seats even if they weren't crowded and on the return trip from Dubai to Chicago, the cheap seats were definitely crowded.

 

[kjdoski]

BBI - I've spent plenty of time in London for work, not really interested in going back, based as you mentioned cost and generally not a fan of over crowded cities myself.

Madrid is pretty nice for a day or three, I'd go there over London any day.

Dublin is on MY ISLAND, so I'd always recommend it if getting there isn't a major hassle.

On flying long overseas legs, we flew United from EWR to Jo'berg in June of 22, and back in July of 22. We were in coach, and the seats were large, well spread out, and generally OK. Still not fun to ride in for 14 hours, but not like cramming into a domestic coach seat. The flight crew were friendly and responsive as well, generally a really good experience.

On our return leg, one of the pilots tested positive for COVID after arriving in Jo'berg, so we were delayed two days on our return date. United put us up in a pretty nice hotel in a nice part of the city, with three meals/day provided at the hotel for the duration, and we took the opportunity to do some touristy stuff in/around Jo'berg during our "delay day." So, overall, not a horrible experience.

BUT, for CONUS trips, I'll drive pretty much anywhere I need to go. Of course, I'm retired, so I have nothing but time on my hands.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI - I've spent plenty of time in London for work, not really interested in going back, based as you mentioned cost and generally not a fan of over crowded cities myself.

Madrid is pretty nice for a day or three, I'd go there over London any day.

Dublin is on MY ISLAND, so I'd always recommend it if getting there isn't a major hassle.

We've been to Madrid as well and liked it. I do want to return to London at least once as we never left the city the first time, as it was a fairly brief stay, and I'd like to see Stonehenge. I missed the boat on seeing it up close as, because people are untrustworthy dicks, you aren't allowed nearly as close to it now as you were a few years ago.

 

[kjdoski]

We've been to Madrid as well and liked it. I do want to return to London at least once as we never left the city the first time, as it was a fairly brief stay, and I'd like to see Stonehenge. I missed the boat on seeing it up close as, because people are untrustworthy dicks, you aren't allowed nearly as close to it now as you were a few years ago.

Well, if you've got things you want to see outside London proper, then that sounds like the "Easy" button.

You also mentioned Munich as a possibility. I liked Munich quite a bit when we were there, and it puts you about an hour away from Garmisch and the German Alps - really very beautiful.

 

[canebreaker]

My first flight was to Chicago for classes at our shop there. The person I went with had lived and worked there for 12 years. We went to a different bar every night so he could visit with old friends.
My second flight was to Pittsburgh for classes. I had search craigslist in the area and found a bucket of 38spl cases for $10. 5 miles out of the way from the airport and motel. I carried my Lee C frame and decapped all before coming home.
In 2002 I get a head/neck injury. We took a vacation to Cancun later in the year. Memphis to Nashville to Cancun. Taking off I felt like I was rolling backwards across all the seat behind me. I learned to put my head to my knees, helped a lot. Return flight, our carry ons was full of liquor, Customes was in Nashville. I sat our bags onto the inspection table to go through the scanner. Just then a US Marshall made his presents known. All eyes were on him instead of our bags. That saved me about $100 in taxes. We smoke, their smoke hole was in a space where a shop had been. Smoked stained glass, trash piled up everywhere. No one cleans the smoke hole.
2005 we took a classmate's trip to Italy for 2 weeks. Memphis flight was late coming in due to weather. Our flight to Cincinnati got there just as our flight to Paris took off. They put us up in a motel overnight. It's a long flight to Paris. At Paris our landing gate was A-2. 35 minutes to get to H-54. We were packed in 4 mini vans and carried to that terminal with 5 minutes to spare. At Roma we were packed in 5 mini vans and taken to our hotel. Our return flight was out of Naples to Paris to Atlanta. Same conditions in the smoke hole. We arrived in Memphis without our luggage. Took a week to get it all. Filed a claim for damaged items.

 

[BugI02]

A long time ago, I used to be one of those people. Now (I am an aisle-seater), I stand up, get my carry-on out of the overhead bin, put it in the aisle, put my laptop briefcase on the handle - and then sit back down until the deplaning reaches my row.

I do this, except I block the aisle and let everyone ahead of me make an orderly departure while preventing those from further back from jamming the aisle and preventing this. It is the airplane equivalent of blocking the unusable lane approaching a zipper merge to make those rushing ahead in it unable to slow the process down even more

 

[BugI02]

This is a very good point, and one I hadn't really considered much. I wonder if airlines could use gate checking as a loophole here? All carry-ons get gate-checked, unless you want to pay to carry it on board (or have status).

This won't happen because of the time consumed and the lack of infrastructure necessary to collect payment

There exist's a 'parallel' hack to avoid paying checked baggage fees. If you know or suspect your flight will be full, take it to the gate (when was the last time someone at the counter actually asked you to put your carry on in the size checker?) and when they ask for volunteers to have their carry on checked through to your destination, simply volunteer. You have to plan for it, though, because I never want anything valuable to be in a bag that is allowed out of my possession. If it actually won't fit in the overhead and they do not ask for volunteers just board late and feign a bewildered inability to find space for it

 

[BugI02]

Isn't this self fulfilling? The more crowded the planes become the more passengers that are likely to want the comfort of first class…

Steerage to Business Class factor is about x4, Business Class to First is another x2. Very few people are willing to pay for those upgrades with cold hard, if it can't be gotten with status or miles or points it usually doesn't get done. The people that could pay cash for First and not notice are flying NetJets or equivalent anyway

 

[Brad69]

I vote Dublin I did spend a weekend in Cork that was ok. I was in the U.K. for six months on an exchange program. The country side is much nicer than London metro IMO.

 

[xwing]

Yeah, but do you go stand in, or very near, the line so you're first in your boarding group that's 6 calls away or try to sneak on with a much earlier group? That's what we're talking about. In Chicago I saw people lined up before they called group 1, and thought there's no way that many people are in 1. I'm group 3, had to push past all of them to board...

I do that. It's the only way I can be assured my family's carry ons will be on the flight (and above or near our seat so we can actually get to them). If you're near the end of your group, good luck finding overhead space!

If airlines didn't charge for checked baggage, this problem would disappear. But since they do, you have to fight for overhead bin space.