I have this crazy idea...

[CountryBoy19]

For some reason, I really want a PDW type weapon in 300 BLK. This all started with my desire to get a 300 BLK a while back, but now it's transformed into wanting a 300 BLK PDW based weapon that can be used as a "go-bag" gun etc. I want it to be compact (very short when folded) but still pack the punch of a rifle. For barrel length I'd like something around 8-9", and of course the suppressor will be kept right with it. AR15 would be an easy choice if there was a good folding stock option. I did see reference to an adapter made that allows a standard DI AR15 to be outfitted with a folding stock (but the gun can't be fired folded because the stock still houses the buffer & spring). I'm not sure if that is actually available, but it sounds to me like that could possibly be problematic.

There are really only 2 platform options that I know of. I think I know which direction I want to go but I want to get opinions & options first. This may be a pipe dream that doesn't come to fruition for a while, but I still want to look into it.


AR15 platform
Pros: availability, plug & play parts, nearly unlimited options, cheap
Cons: No folding stock unless I go with a proprietary piston system w/ folding stock, or possibly a custom folding stock adapter

Sig 556 patrol based system (short gas system)
Pros: adjustable gas valve built in which allows adjustments to be made and allows the gas to be shut off for that hollywood-quiet that the 300 BLK is reknowned for, folding stock already present on gun, I already have a 556 that I'm happy with and could share parts commonality with that, relatively cheap considering the only change I should have to make is the barrel and possibly adjust the gas port sizes in the gas-valve
Cons: need to have a custom 300 BLK barrel profiled, chambered, and timed to the specific 556 rifle it will be installed on (I can do this myself once I get a lathe again)

Other platforms I've consider may be possible but I don't know much about would be the ACR & SCAR. Any others I'm missing?

 

[MattCFII]

AKs of course:

The Firearm Blog » AK (Arsenal 106UR) Short Barreled Rifle in .300 AAC BLK

Of course, like the Sig 556 that would be a custom gun. However you could always go for a 7.62x39 SBR AK since they are ballistic twins, .300 BLK was made to replicate 7.62x39 (and .300 Whisper) for ARs since apparently ARs don't like tapered cases. Also there is limited options for subsonic 7.62x39 but I have seen a custom loader or two. doing it.

 

[JTinIN]

While the 300 Sig is a nice gun, is a one of custom option. For you stated us vs a cool range toy, one has to consider availability of ammo and if the 300 BLK really offers that much more than a pistol round when shooting subsonic ammo (with supper sonic ammo would go with a 223 or 7.62x39). For your stated use the 7.62x39 if you could make it work subsonic would be a better option .... or live with a suppressed 223.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I considered looking into a .300blk for my SCAR L but I decided against it. Matt at FTE was nice enough to let me hear my Light with a suppressor on it. It wasn't stupid quiet but it also was effective past 300 yards. The SCAR would be a good option for that go to bag. Folded and SBR'd it would fit EASILY into a back pack.

The ACR has no support, including barrels. You would think the same company making a new round would make barrels to support it. I digress.


I've shot a few of the Sig 556 rifles and I was unimpressed. They are cheap however, which would make the conversion cheaper than going with a SCAR.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Ok, let me add a little clarification on "go-bag". By go-bag I don't mean TEOTWAWKI I'm getting out of dodge. I mean, carry in the trunk of my car, take camping, just a standard "preparedness bag". I'm not extremely concerned about ammo availability. I'm more-so concerned about compactness of the weapon and versatility. I have AK's already, even underfolders and while they will work, I want the versatility of being able to add a suppressor and switch to subs without any changes to the gun (with the exception of gas adjustments that can be done readily with no additional tools). One of the biggest downfalls to the AK is the lack of sub-ammo (means I have to load my own with hard to find components) and the relative inability to effectively suppress it. I'm more-so interested in being prepared for the more likely situations and that means not so much focusing directly on TEOTWAWKI situation where ammo and components are no longer available. I'll take care of keeping a stock on hand (I do reload). I really like the versatility of the Sig 556, I can have 3 different gas settings, and 1 "off" setting which offers a great deal of versatility to me.

Another clarification, part of the compactness means that the stock has to fold, this limits the AR15 options (piston or DI) to only a few makers. I think there are only 2 piston manufacturers making a rifle that can have the stock folded and possibly one that makes a kit to allow a folding stock to be installed on a DI AR15 (but can't be fired folded). I looked at those options and by the time I buy those and re-configure them to 300 BLK, I may as well buy a couple of Sig 556 rifles.

The RRA PDS is $1700 (MSRP), not to mention the gas system is much longer than that of the Sig, limiting the amount the barrel can be shortened.
Sig 556 is $1200 (MSRP)

Mostly, I am looking for any other options outside of the Sig or the AR15 that I may have been missing. I included the AR15 just as a means of "completeness" for the poll because it technically is an option.

 

[cfgunworks]

have you thought about re-barreling a mini-14 with a folder?

 

[jeremy]

How short of an overall length are you looking at Cb19?!

I would think that a DI AR with a Collapsible stock and 9" barrel would be pretty damn small...
If you went Piston it would give you the advantage of a couple of things, one being the option of a folding stock...

Personally I would be interested in building something like this off of the FAL platform, myself. Hmmmm.... Just what I needed another project...

 

[JTinIN]

OK the 300 BLK sounds much more interesting, once I am not making incorrect assumptions .... ;-).

While one would have to play with the rollers and licking piece, an HK"53" in 300 BlackOut would be interesting.

Think the Sig is probably the best option ....

 

[CountryBoy19]

How short of an overall length are you looking at Cb19?!

OAL w/ stock folded: as short as possible without hampering cycling or ballistics. With 300 BLK this means not much shorter than 8" barrel if the gas system will support a barrel that short (I think the Sig's short gas system will do that just fine with a little modification to the gas ports in the gas valve)

OAL w/ stock opened: As short as possible but no shorter than what can comfortably be handled well.

My ultimate goal is to be able to fit this in a small back-pack or laptop case/briefcase type setup if I wanted to.

Stock length isn't super critical because with it folded the barrel is still going to be longer. Mainly I want the ability to fold coupled with a short barrel.

 

[jeremy]

OAL w/ stock folded: as short as possible without hampering cycling or ballistics. With 300 BLK this means not much shorter than 8" barrel if the gas system will support a barrel that short (I think the Sig's short gas system will do that just fine with a little modification to the gas ports in the gas valve)

OAL w/ stock opened: As short as possible but no shorter than what can comfortably be handled well.

My ultimate goal is to be able to fit this in a small back-pack or laptop case/briefcase type setup if I wanted to.

Stock length isn't super critical because with it folded the barrel is still going to be longer. Mainly I want the ability to fold coupled with a short barrel.

I would go with either a AR that is piston driven or look at building a 300 on a FAL platform. While the Sigs are good performers, I think it would be far more pricey to build one of them up as opposed to the AR or the FAL platforms...

 

[Slow Hand]

My two suggestions both involve custom barrel work but that should've be a problem for you...

First one has kind of been mentioned is an AK. I'm thinking of a Saiga or whoever in .223 with a new barrel for the blackout. Then you could do an underfolder, triangle side folder or an ACE adaptor for an AR tube and stock.

Second one is a funky dream of mine. It's a Kel Tec SU-16 with the pistol grip and AR stock, short barrel and chambered for .300 BLK. You could again use an ACE adaptor for a side folding stock.

I know my buddy made some SBR'ed SIG rifles in .300 whisper a couple years back. I saw them in his safe and may have handled them but did not have a chance to shoot any of them.

 

[Slow Hand]

I have also had an idea I've never really looked into. Having some sort of pin on the buffer tube of an AR, and using a side folding adaptor on a DI AR. You could pull the charging handle back to get the buffer clear of the pin. Insert the pin and lock the buffer in place, allowing the stock to be folded. For firing, just swing te stock bak in place and pull the pin, freeing the buffer to work as designed. I'm going to guess that this wouldn't work with off the shelf parts and not having a lathe or mill, the idea has gone no further than rattling around in my brain a few times...

 

[nfranke]

you could consider a ps90, it shoots the 5.7x28 pistol round but very compact once it is a sbr

 

[CountryBoy19]

I think I'm really liking the Sig... it appears to have everything I want, and most online reports seem to be that Sig has pulled their heads out of their butts when it comes to not screwing stuff up on the 556. QC is still lacking in the respect that a lot of things slip out the door, but Sig has reportedly been really good at taking care of the problems. I like my original 556, so I think when I get back home, and eventually get a lathe, I may just have to bite the bullet and go the direction of 556. I definitely don't want any other calibers, only the 300 BLK due to the great versatility and ease of conversion to/from/with other 5.56 type rifles/accessories.

Mmmm.... everything about that just screams awesome to me...

 

[jeremy]

I think I'm really liking the Sig... it appears to have everything I want, and most online reports seem to be that Sig has pulled their heads out of their butts when it comes to not screwing stuff up on the 556. QC is still lacking in the respect that a lot of things slip out the door, but Sig has reportedly been really good at taking care of the problems. I like my original 556, so I think when I get back home, and eventually get a lathe, I may just have to bite the bullet and go the direction of 556. I definitely don't want any other calibers, only the 300 BLK due to the great versatility and ease of conversion to/from/with other 5.56 type rifles/accessories.

Mmmm.... everything about that just screams awesome to me...

No Argument there....

I still like the idea of a FAL body ripping .300 blackout through it though...

 

[CountryBoy19]

No Argument there....

I still like the idea of a FAL body ripping .300 blackout through it though...

I considered a FAL, but I just think it's going to be a lot more work dealing with trying to find FAL parts designed around the 5.56 (the parent of the 300 BLK) or making the necessary modifications to a 7.62 based FAL. I would rather deal with making a custom barrel vs. dealing with working out mag & feeding issues trying to get a 300 BLK to feed properly on a 7.62X51 based platform. I may be over-thinking it, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'm pretty confident that any feeding issues I may experience on a 5.56 based platform will be much more easily corrected.

 

[jeremy]

Red Rock Arms makes a 5.56 FAL...
http://redrockarms.com/atr.html
Takes AR Mags if I recall correctly...

 

[CountryBoy19]

Red Rock Arms makes a 5.56 FAL...
Red Rock Arms ATR-1
Takes AR Mags if I recall correctly...

Hmm... AL receiver FAL... that just seems wrong, and from my recollection, I think I've heard about some 7.62 AL receiver FALs that had problem shearing the locking lugs out of the receivers. Even with 5.56, that can't be good on it...

I'm not trying to be dismissive of your opinion, it just seems like I could easily get in over my head trying to pursue an option that may or may not have readily available parts and good service.

 

[jeremy]

Hmm... AL receiver FAL... that just seems wrong, and from my recollection, I think I've heard about some 7.62 AL receiver FALs that had problem shearing the locking lugs out of the receivers. Even with 5.56, that can't be good on it...

I'm not trying to be dismissive of your opinion, it just seems like I could easily get in over my head trying to pursue an option that may or may not have readily available parts and good service.

Not at all...

I really think, given your parameters of short. The Sig is the best option. Was just trying to throw out options, with the ability to have some type of Aftermarket to them.

Another option my Brother and I were just talking of would be to mod a Galil...

 

[jeremy]

I am now going to have to see how much it will cost to do a Galil...