I still don't understand if a new gun has a traceable papertrail to me.

[Chaz]

I read this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...is_is_what_happens_with_gun_registration.html
and it doesn't really give me the answer, one way or the other, on whether or not a brand new (or used) gun purchased thru an FFL can be traced to me after the sale?
I know you have to do paperwork at that time, but where does that paperwork go?? Who gets a record of it? Does it ever get destroyed?
I have had this conversation many times with other gun owners and everyone seems to have a different take. Is there a gun shop owner, or other person, on here that "truly knows"?? It would just be nice to know what actually happens... be it what it may. (It will certainly make me think about future purchases)
Thanx guys...

 

[digitalmonster]

NYC does link your gun up to you.

The log book links your gun up to you, I have not heard of the log books getting uploaded anywhere. They just need them for inspection.

Feds know you bought and what type of gun because of NICS.

They even assign an approval number, so technically they can go to the gun store where you bought it ask for the logs for that day and look up exact details.

 

[Chaz]

Thank the Good Lord I don't live it NCY OR ILL-inois.
So then, I am to understand that the record stays only at the FFL but can be gotten from them anytime from the "powers that be"?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I am to understand that the record stays only at the FFL but can be gotten from them anytime from the "powers that be"?

Essentially.

There are other circumstances (going out of business, being investigated, etc) that could cause all their NICS paperwork to be shipped to The Feds.

-J-

 

[Kirk Freeman]

it doesn't really give me the answer, one way or the other, on whether or not a brand new (or used) gun purchased thru an FFL can be traced to me after the sale?

Yes.

ATFE initiates the trace at the request of a fellow LE agency, an USA, or the Prosecuting/District/Commonwealth/State's Attorney of a county/parish. ATFE starts at the manufacturer, then the distributor, then the gun store and then you (however, once you sell/trade it, it disappears).

Here is a common fact pattern:

Local ATF center brings the gun tracking home - seattlepi.com

It can be used by foreign countries as well.

ATF Fact Sheet - eTrace: Internet-Based Firearms Tracing and Analysis

 

[digitalmonster]

I would imagine one day FFL's will be required to go to an electronic paperless system that the GOV hosts replacing log books.

 

[nemo97]

And there is a real value to some of us for private sales. A used, untraceable gun is a good thing in some SHTF scenarios that I think most are still in denial can happen (because it does happen in the good old' U S of A).

 

[jrogers]

I would imagine one day FFL's will be required to go to an electronic paperless system that the GOV hosts replacing log books.

I'm reasonably certain this would run afoul of the prohibition on a national registry.

And there is a real value to some of us for private sales.

Sure. They're cheaper.

 

[Bert]

so if 2 friends buy like guns , then trade them to each other . no more paper trail . I would guess they wouldn't have to be like guns . Just pay for the one you get .

 

[jLr]

I'm reasonably certain this would run afoul of the prohibition on a national registry.

I'm not sure how the current system (excluding private sales) isn't the same thing as a registry...just in disguise.

 

[jrogers]

I see your point, but due to the detailed records largely remaining in paper form in the back of the local gun shop advanced data mining isn't feasible. There is a vast gulf between what would be possible with a digital national registry and the system currently in place.

 

[inrunner]

Thank the Good Lord I don't live it NCY OR ILL-inois.
So then, I am to understand that the record stays only at the FFL but can be gotten from them anytime from the "powers that be"?

What are you planning? no paper trial?

 

[PistolBob]

I would imagine one day FFL's will be required to go to an electronic paperless system that the GOV hosts replacing log books.

I am amazed that this didn't happen 20 years ago. Filling out paperwork is so so so 1800's anymore. I almost feel like someone doing a reenactment when I have to use a pen to fill something out these days.

They can even do a quick fingerprint scan to verify you are who you say you are when you buy the firearm as well...but they don't.

 

[PistolBob]

Buy all your guns from a private party and there is no direct paper trail to you....especially if you are getting them second or third hand. What are you worried about?

 

[HoughMade]

Here's the deal. A gun bought from an FFL is traceable to you if they start with the gun, but not if they start with you. Here's what I mean. Let's say I have a Glock 23. If the gun turns up as part of a crime such that law enforcement wants to trace it, they take the make, model and serial number back to Glock and check (subpoenaing if necessary) to see where Glock shipped the gun. If it went to a distributor, same thing, subpoena if necessary, what FFL the gun was sold to. Then, once you get to the FFL, well, you know they have record of who you are.

Now, if the go to you and want to see if you own guns, unless you tell them, tell them where you bought or they actually have a warrant (or otherwise) search and find the gun, it's going to be hard, not impossible, but hard and hit and miss.

 

[Classic]

I believe what some see as an advantage in a "no paperwork" gun purchase it that if there ever came a time when some types of weapons were to be confiscated the ffl logs would be used as a "to do" list by the confiscators. Just another SHTF to consider. Similar has happened in some countries in the past.

 

[Chaz]

Great info again, guys.
This has been a subject that friends and I have talked about but, there has always been discrepancy on what everyone thought. No one really seemed to know exactly how it worked. I now have a better idea of how it works. Thanx.
Granted, it sounds like buying used has benefits but, to just go buy one at a shop, albeit more expensive, was always easier. And even the used ones hold a good value nowadays as well so.....
I guess my only concern would be is IF (God forbid) SHTF, they would come to the original owner and hang him (me) by the toe nails even tho I sold it at the 1500 to a man I don't even know.
Ya know, there needs to be some restrictions, we all know that but, stuff/questions like this should never have to be an issue, or even a thought. With our 2nd Ammendment, and being legal, law abiding and sane, the last thing any of us should have to think about is the possibility - however remote or likely - that our Gov "could" require us to hand over our protection and sport. It's such a shame. Australia keeps coming to mind and just how sickening that was/is.
Thanx again!

 

[jrogers]

I believe what some see as an advantage in a "no paperwork" gun purchase it that if there ever came a time when some types of weapons were to be confiscated the ffl logs would be used as a "to do" list by the confiscators. Just another SHTF to consider. Similar has happened in some countries in the past.

I've heard the concern before, but given that there is no record requirement for private sales there's no way to prove that Billy Bob didn't sell all his guns to some guy last week. And of all the luck he didn't happen to catch the guy's name!

I'm not advocating violating any laws current or future. Not even with a wink. It just so happens that confiscation is impossible without a cooperative public.

 

[HoughMade]

Here's the thing- in a SHTF scenario and if we are dealing with a tyrannical government with unlimited resources, what they could do is go gather up the 4473s, then go to the first record owner and "persuade" that owner to produce the gun or reveal where it went, using whatever means are effective. They would then go to the next person and the next person. It would be slow, imprecise, incomplete and difficult, but eventually, it could be somewhat successful in collecting a large percentage of guns, though never all. I see that as more than unlikely, but I'm just setting forth the possibilities.

 

[M88A1]

so if 2 friends buy like guns , then trade them to each other . no more paper trail . I would guess they wouldn't have to be like guns . Just pay for the one you get .

Then you still have a firearm in the record books under your name that somone might come searching for. It's best to purchase used (private sales) or trade for something. Way it's not tracable to you.