IDPA - accuracy or speed ?

[BillD]

My advice is only pull the trigger as fast as you can hit A's, do everything else as fast as you can.

I even try to follow that advice, occasionally.

 

[sbcman]

Over time, as a shooter improves and learns those helpful techniques, the speed at which a shooter is able to make hits will increase. And once they reach a certain level shooting speed wont necessarily degrade the acceptable accuracy. I agree with all that.

But for the most part with new shooters, that shooting speed is not the gap they are seeing in the scores. It's reloads. It's moving between positions. It's "pie'ing the corner." It's searching for target locations. It's reacting to the buzzer. These things have nothing to do w/ marksmenship, but are probably 75%+ of the gap reflected in the scores. Yet when new shooters talk about scores, invariably it's this "should I shoot faster or be accurate." It's important we separate the skills.

1) Take enough time when shooting to get acceptable hits.
2) Reduce time spent NOT shooting.

The shooting speed will eventually come... but right now, it's probably not the most important thing affecting your score.

-rvb

Excellent. The first paragraph is what I was trying to convey in . I think I'll keep this and the other post around to rehearse to new shooters

Repped!

 

[rvb]

Interesting statement Ryan.
I confess to using this advice a lot to new shooters.
As a former match director at a USPSA club and a NRA instructor I also held new shooter and beginning competition classes for several years.
I have seen it hundreds of times and I'm sure you have also. A new shooter shows up and squads up and watchs several experienced shooters run the first course of fire. He steps to the line and tries to do what he saw everyone else do and go as fast as the ones before them and fails having several misses. I always try to slow them down some so they can learn the basics. This advice only seems to work for a couple of stages and they speed up and crash again.
It was tough to see a new shooter shoot fast and crash so hard and when the results came out they usually didn't come back.

I just think it takes more than a 2 second sound bite or slogan.

What I typically see is when we tell folks "go slow, get your hits" or "speed will come" or some such well-intended non-specific advice, then they do EVERYTHING slow... as if we told them to play a video back at half speed. Then they get frustrated with their times/scores and they start doing EVERYTHING fast as if they hit the fast-forward button on their DVD player, sight pictures and trigger presses be damned.

The shooting and the non-shooting parts of the sport have to be somewhat issolated.

What I usually tell new shooters is accuracy is king. You have to make your hits. That means some kind of sight picture and a decent trigger press. But it's not a bullseye league so don't over-aim. Break the shot as soon as it's good enough. Rushing here will only save a couple tenths (all washed out by any points down). Whether your "double taps" [cringe] are 0.3s or 0.6s splits won't make a huge difference, so don't focus on it.

Everything else you do you want to do with your hair on fire. Don't take a relaxing stroll between positions, don't wait till the buzzers done buzzing to react, don't get to a corner and take 5 seconds to pie it. If you want to "save time," do it on the movement, and reloads, and getting into position, etc. That's how you cut seconds off your score.

Pretty much what I said before, you have to explain that they need to:

1) Take enough time when shooting to get acceptable hits.
2) Reduce time spent NOT shooting.

A new shooter needs to worry about SAFETY first and having fun second. If they stay with the sport they will go thru the usual learning curve of speed vs accuracy.
?

Safety is of course important. If they can't run safely w/ a gun, then by all means they should walk or stroll around the stage.

I even try to follow that advice, occasionally.

It all sounds so easy, doesn't it?!?!

That's the other thing I tell new shooters... I've been doing this for over a decade, and I STILL don't listen to my own advice!

-rvb

 

[rvb]

My first shoot provided a number of learning experiences. .... don't load 12 in the magazine even if the magazine will accept that many rounds, don't shoot the targets out of order, don't shoot the targets with the "friendly" hands, . . . . and on . . . and on !

There is definately a learning curve associated with the rules that affects your scores, too. I think that stuff is often the most frustrating for new shooters. Spend some time off the range reviewing the rules and dryfiring the sequences, and understand when to use them, etc. Get a few matches under your belt and possibly take the SO training and you won't have those issues going forward.

-rvb

 

[jakemartens]

I have thought about writing a book on this

but got it covered here

 

[riverman67]

I have thought about writing a book on this

but got it covered here

for you one of the alphas have to be in the upper A or youre just not trying

 

[Bosshoss]

I just think it takes more than a 2 second sound bite or slogan.

What I typically see is when we tell folks "go slow, get your hits" or "speed will come" or some such well-intended non-specific advice, then they do EVERYTHING slow... as if we told them to play a video back at half speed. Then they get frustrated with their times/scores and they start doing EVERYTHING fast as if they hit the fast-forward button on their DVD player, sight pictures and trigger presses be damned.

The shooting and the non-shooting parts of the sport have to be somewhat issolated.

What I usually tell new shooters is accuracy is king. You have to make your hits. That means some kind of sight picture and a decent trigger press. But it's not a bullseye league so don't over-aim. Break the shot as soon as it's good enough. Rushing here will only save a couple tenths (all washed out by any points down). Whether your "double taps" [cringe] are 0.3s or 0.6s splits won't make a huge difference, so don't focus on it.

-rvb

I agree with everything you said Ryan and it is great advice for a shooter that has shot 3 or 4 matches and has the very basics down and is ready to improve.
When I first started teaching new shooter classes I was reminded quickly what it was like to be a new shooter. I would be several minutes into talking about engaging steel targets when someone would ask the question what is a pepper popper? Some of the simplest things to those that have been shooting for a while is so foreign to a new shooter.
I still think a NEW shooter at their first or second match doesn't need to worry getting faster just get the basics down. I don't see where they need to worry about how fast they run or reload just yet. Telling them to slow down and try to shoot all A's (I have had new shooters ask what is a A) keeps there mind at the same speed they are moving and shooting instead of getting ahead of themselfs.
I hear shooters at a match trying to help a new shooter by explaining the scoring system or other aspects of the sport, in great detail. Their eyes glaze over as they are so lost. They don't need to know how the scoring systems(hit factors, etc.) work at the first couple of matchs. They will see their name in the results and will hopefully come back and want to move up in the results. Then they can ask the questions about scoring and how do I get faster.
While it won't hurt anything to explain to a brand new shooter the differance between shooting fast and doing everything else fast. I don't feel that is a big deal to a new shooter.
Safety-fun-get hooked on the shooting games-get better- in that order. IMHO
If I'm RO'ing a new shooter I will tell them to slow down and get their hits and at the same token if they are shooting mostly A's I will tell them if they are comfortable with it to pick up the speed a little and see what happens.
I guess too many years as a match director dealing with new shooters.

 

[jwo483]

I won "most accurate" before I ever won my class because I follwed the advice "go slow and get your hits". One thing I haven't seen pointed out is that speed seems to come closer to making up for down points on higher round count stages. Work a lot on draws and mag changes. Learn where a reload with retention will save you time over a slide lock reload.

 

[rhino]

Accuracy in our sports is more about waiting than it is about "slow." Wait until you have adequate visual information to make a given shot. As you develop, that time you wait will decrease for a variety of reasons.

 

[amboy49]

Analyzed my score

I analyzed my score. I had 57 down points. Penalties 1 2 1 for a total of 18 seconds in penalties. I had one stage where it took me 62 seconds because I didn't have the magazine seated all the way in the magazine well to start the stage and it took me at least 20 seconds to remember to bump the magazine.

IF I would have had no down points, no penalties and just a normal stage two of 40 seconds instead of 62 I would have come within 10 seconds of the best score posted that day ! I know, a big IF. I had 29 down points on one stage. Those targets were farthest away. I also suffered a non lethal target hit on this stage - head shot at 20 yards.

This all tells me I should be trying to improve my accuracy and do away with the penalties ( duh ! ) - some of which resulted from my inaccuracy ( non leathal and failure to engage ). I also was trying to be very safety conscious. I was very measured in drawing the gun and shooting and I walked from shooting point to shooting point rather than trying to run. I think this may be a little like learning to play racquetball and figuring out where not to be. I will get better.

 

[BillD]

We all look at the scores and say..."If only"

Penalties kill your overall score, dumb human tricks do too (such as not having a mag seated or running past a port you need to shoot from....a couple times. I did both this weekend.)

 

[rvb]

I agree with everything you said Ryan and it is great advice for a shooter that has shot 3 or 4 matches and has the very basics down and is ready to improve.
...
While it won't hurt anything to explain to a brand new shooter the differance between shooting fast and doing everything else fast. I don't feel that is a big deal to a new shooter.
Safety-fun-get hooked on the shooting games-get better- in that order. IMHO

ok, so the OP has shot a match, he didn't DQ, and he sounds hooked. He's left the range, gotten his scores, and is on the internet. He is now asking how to improve his scores. "Shoot faster, or more accurate?" he says.

"Get your hits, speed will come" I guess provides somewhat of an answer and may be all you have time to say when running a match or a timer, but it doesn't really offer much help in how to improve his scores. Now planting the seed that there are many opportunities to save lots of time throughout a stage, even while shooting slow and getting the hits... that will have him excelling in much shorter order.

Just saying "get your hits, the speed will come!" always sounds to me like saying "an apple a day keeps the Dr away!" if someone asks how to stay healthy. Kinda rhythmic, kinda true, ignores lots of other factors... if only it rhymed.

If you have to use a one-liner, I like Jake's torn-up post-it-note. I just chose to give some examples (as you said, maybe a new shooter wouldn't know what "everything else" is once we've told them to do it faster).

-rvb

 

[downrange72]

I can provide a USPSA example from last weekend. I had a stage where I was the 2nd fastest overall and finished 8th on the stage. There were no mikes, eight charlie and six delta on a 24 round COF. I was 9th overall out of 13th on the stage.

I hate to admit it, but Jakes piec of paper is right. You can even see in my video, where I was a touc out of control and the score sheet showed it. I believe it was the 4th or 5th stage on my video.

 

[riverman67]

I like Jake's paper as well. With a few years under my belt I'm still trying to figure out how to do it.I don't really do anything fast,except eat.
I don't pursue this game like some of you guys do. I want to improve but I don't want to burn out. When dryfire or practice becomes too much like a job,I will have attended my last match,I already have a job.

 

[jakemartens]

I have thought about writing a book on this

but got it covered here

Here is all I can tell you that I know about shooting, because to be honest a lot of what you see me do just happens for whatever reason I shoot the way I shoot becuase that is the way I shoot.

I have very rarely ever tried to go as fast as I could when shooting a stage. Not to say I haven't, but the results have never been very good when I tried.

In the last 13 years of shooting competitions I have learned that you can only shoot as fast as you can see.
and that is
-see what is an acceptable sight picture to you for what you are shooting at
What does that mean?
FOR ME, my acceptable sight picture will be different depending on how close/far, whether it is steel or paper target, is there hardcover or no shoot around it, am I moving into or out of a position when shooting it.

how is all that stuff determined......I do not know, it just is. I do know that it comes from repetition and prior experiences. I also know that FOR ME if I am trying to think my way through any of it while I am shooting my brain or my thoughts just get in the way of letting it happen.

I can tell that if there is something that you want to get better at you have to work at it, natural ability will only get you to the game, to win you have to develop that natural talent or skill.

 

[CAMullis]

Just paid for an IDPA membership tonight. Looking forward to a qualifier and getting to some matches.