IDPA and procedural error

[amboy49]

I hope I can paint a verbal picture of the course of fire adequately to then ask a question - so here goes. The stage started at the seated position with gun on a table loaded with six rounds and three targets down range. No cover. The shooter must fire two rounds at each target, reload while on the move to the next firing point which was to the shooter's left.

The firing point is at a barrel with three targets down range. The shooter was to shoot from the kneeling position weak hand only. One target to the right which was closest. One target to the left which is next distant and the third target in the middle of the other two targets and furthest away. The COF instructions stated the targets may be engaged in a "tactcal manner." Not must - may. Most folks shot "over" the barrel which meant the closest target (on the right) was to be shot first, the left target (second closest) was to be shot second and the farthers target shot last. One shooter (me), who was one of the first shooters for that stage, decided to shoot from "beside" not "over" the barrel. Taking a position on the left side of the barrel the target on the left (slicing the pie) was engaged first. The target on the right ( which was far closer ) was then engaged and the target most distant downrange was engaged last.

This resulted in three procedural errors. I was trying not to receive any procedural penalties for not utilizing cover. Hence, I shot from the left side of the barrel instead of exposing myself and shooting over the top of the barrel. Afterward, I started wondering if the stage required the shooter to shoot over the barrel or it was an option and the shooter could shoot from the side w/out incurring procedural penalties. Trying to make each of my fiascos a "learning experience."

Thanks in advance

 

[diverjes06]

Somewhat depends on the wording of the briefing. If it was stated that the targets should be engaged in Tactical Priority, and did not prohibit shooting over the barrel, shooting the threats near to far would be correct. If the term "Tactical Priority" was not used, then you could argue that shooting the targets in any order was a "tactical manner". Tactical Priority is a specific way of shooting an array, while "tactical manner" has no specific meaning.
If the stage designer did not specify, then it would be normal to shoot the threats near to far.
That said, making use of the cover provided by barrel is to be commended. You just need to be careful not to handicap yourself when shooting a stage.

 

[Hogwylde]

By "slicing the pie", you MUST engage targets AS THEY APPEAR. Since you engaged from the left side of the barrel, the proper order would have been left, center, then right target.....regardless of range.

What you did was break cover and expose yourself to the center target when you engaged the right target (because it was closer). If you had shot over the barrel like most of the other shooters, then you go from closest to farthest. But since you used the barrel for cover and sliced the pie, you shot them in the wrong order, hence the procedural error

 

[amboy49]

By "slicing the pie", you MUST engage targets AS THEY APPEAR. Since you engaged from the left side of the barrel, the proper order would have been left, center, then right target.....regardless of range.

What you did was break cover and expose yourself to the center target when you engaged the right target (because it was closer). If you had shot over the barrel like most of the other shooters, then you go from closest to farthest. But since you used the barrel for cover and sliced the pie, you shot them in the wrong order, hence the procedural error

I assumed that was the case but thought only one procedural error would be assigned. Is that not the case ?

thanks in advance.

 

[Hogwylde]

Hmmm....three does sound like too much. I can see one for wrong order and one for breaking cover, but I'm hard pressed to figure out the third. Next time you have issues, ask before you leave the line while it's still fresh in there minds.

 

[indycruzr]

Hi all! I'm the director of the match in question here.

Here is the link to the CoF in question - http://tcsl-idpa.net/tcsl/images/cofs/cof_092510.pdf it is the first stage in the PDF.

As you can see from the course description it states - Tactical Priority is how all targets are to be engaged. Now whether it was read or not I can not attest to. But if not specified in the course description, all threat targets are to be engaged in "tactical priority" per IDPA rules. Per rule 3.4 "Targets must be engaged in tactical priority unless tactical sequence is specified in the stage description..." So in theory "tactical manner" is tactical priority because Tactical Sequence was not specified.

As for use of cover, the stage description denotes "low cover" from P2. It does not say from around cover at P2.
If you have questions about the CoF, everyone is encouraged to please ask during the CoF walk-thru or prior to making "ready". That is what that time is for.

As for you getting 3 procedural errors on that stage, if you look at your score (I will not share the link for your privacy) you will see you received only 1 procedure for that stage not 3 as stated in your original post.

Please be aware that we strive for a good fun match for all and I am always available during the match or after it to answer any questions you might have.

Hope to see you at the next match,
Indycruzr

 

[amboy49]

Hi all! I'm the director of the match in question here.

Here is the link to the CoF in question - http://tcsl-idpa.net/tcsl/images/cofs/cof_092510.pdf it is the first stage in the PDF.

As you can see from the course description it states - Tactical Priority is how all targets are to be engaged. Now whether it was read or not I can not attest to. But if not specified in the course description, all threat targets are to be engaged in "tactical priority" per IDPA rules. Per rule 3.4 "Targets must be engaged in tactical priority unless tactical sequence is specified in the stage description..." So in theory "tactical manner" is tactical priority because Tactical Sequence was not specified.

As for use of cover, the stage description denotes "low cover" from P2. It does not say from around cover at P2.
If you have questions about the CoF, everyone is encouraged to please ask during the CoF walk-thru or prior to making "ready". That is what that time is for.

As for you getting 3 procedural errors on that stage, if you look at your score (I will not share the link for your privacy) you will see you received only 1 procedure for that stage not 3 as stated in your original post.

Please be aware that we strive for a good fun match for all and I am always available during the match or after it to answer any questions you might have.

Hope to see you at the next match,
Indycruzr

Just want to clarify if it's not apparent - I enjoyed the IDPA shoot at Wildcat. I started the thread to gain information and to use the scenario as a learning exercise. I have always remembered the questions I missed on tests more than the ones I got correct. I've made mental notes on this shooting COF - hopefully I remember it the next time I see the same set up.

 

[rhino]

I hope I can paint a verbal picture of the course of fire adequately to then ask a question - so here goes. The stage started at the seated position with gun on a table loaded with six rounds and three targets down range. No cover. The shooter must fire two rounds at each target, reload while on the move to the next firing point which was to the shooter's left.

If you did this, you should have earned a second procedural. You can't move from one position to another while you are reloading in IDPA as per the current rules.

You would have to reload at the table before you left or reload at the barrel after you arrived.

It helps to read the rules, and I just checked and saw that I got bitten a little because I did not! I have not fully read the new rules, which is my fault. I was the only one in my squad who shot the targets in front of the table while I was moving, which obviously caused me to run dry. Under rule 3.8, I could have reloaded as I continued to move to the barrel as long as I did not engage targets until I got there behind cover. Our SO made me stop in the middle to reload since I didn't want to wait to do it until I got to the barrel. If I had known the rules better, I would have known that reloading from slide lock (or empty chamber/empty mag) when you're out in the open after engaging targets on the move is within the rules. If I'd reloaded without stopping, I could have saved a second or two from my time. My fault!!!

3.8. All reloads must be performed behind cover; however, in a Scenario CoF, if a shooter runs the firearm empty while engaging targets on the move, as required or allowed by the CoF description, the shooter may
initiate an Emergency Reload while advancing to the next shooting position specified in the CoF. The
shooter may not engage any more targets until after reaching the next shooting position.

 

[cobber]

If you did this, you should have earned a second procedural. You can't move from one position to another while you are reloading in IDPA as per the current rules.

You would have to reload at the table before you left or reload at the barrel after you arrived.

It helps to read the rules, and I just checked and saw that I got bitten a little because I did not! I have not fully read the new rules, which is my fault. I was the only one in my squad who shot the targets in front of the table while I was moving, which obviously caused me to run dry. Under rule 3.8, I could have reloaded as I continued to move to the barrel as long as I did not engage targets until I got there behind cover. Our SO made me stop in the middle to reload since I didn't want to wait to do it until I got to the barrel. If I had known the rules better, I would have known that reloading from slide lock (or empty chamber/empty mag) when you're out in the open after engaging targets on the move is within the rules. If I'd reloaded without stopping, I could have saved a second or two from my time. My fault!!!

Wait. If you shot to slide lock at the table, you have to get to the barrel to reload, but if you shot to slide lock on the move, then can reload on the move?

Argh.

 

[indycruzr]

No you could have reloaded at the table before moving to the P2 shooting position.

 

[rhino]

Wait. If you shot to slide lock at the table, you have to get to the barrel to reload, but if you shot to slide lock on the move, then can reload on the move?

Argh.

No you could have reloaded at the table before moving to the P2 shooting position.

There you have it!

 

[cobber]

There you have it!

My brain hurts...

I'm not a risk taker. I got to the barrel first. That being said, I placed last in my division. (Dang office stage...)

 

[rhino]

My brain hurts...

I'm not a risk taker. I got to the barrel first. That being said, I placed last in my division. (Dang office stage...)

Shooting and placing last is better than not shooting!

I've been last a lot more times than I've been close to first, much less first (on those rare occasions). Back in 1996 I was dead last in Limited Division in both the Indiana and Michigan State USPSA matches, so I'm experienced and bringing up the rear!