IF you carry have you considered?

[Colt1860]

Be careful what you wish for. I lived in the Upper peninsula of Michigan for awhile and wanted to exercise my right to carry a gun. At that time in Michigan to get a conceal carry permit you had to take a class that included aspects of using lethal force and then demonstrate your proficiency to the instructor at a range. Of course this all cost money. Then send in your paper work with more money. Of course Michigan also has registration for handguns, disguised a safety check.

I think all of this is just to put roadblocks in the way of you exercising your constitutional right. I like that Indiana trusts it citizens and makes it easy to get a permit.

Do you need a permit to exercise any of your other rights. Maybe there needs to be an IQ test before you can exercise your first amendment rights. Remember that half the population is below average IQ.

 

[Lars]

This has ALWAYS been my complaint about Indiana CCW permits. A blind man can get one.......seriously.

I think more states should move back to a Constitutional Permit less Carry personally. I also think anyone who carries a gun should be responsible seeking instruction from competent sources. Requiring a class to get a license just builds an industry around the lowest common denominator. Do you think any state with required classes actually results in "competent" license holders? Having done classes for both Utah, and Texas, I can say with certainty they do not.

 

[thunderchicken]

I agree with those who have mentioned the additional costs, legal hoops that would be created if a class was required to obtain a LTCH. I'm not for anything that creates hoops to jump through or more red tape BS to be able to exercise our rights.
I fully agree the decision to carry a gun is not to be taken lightly. If someone is going to carry a gun, it is their responsibility to do the research, become familiar with the laws for where they live, and to train. Shooting/training and safe gun handling are perishable skills. Obviously only regular training will strengthen those skills.
I admit it amazes me how many people buy a gun and slip it into a floppydick nylon holster without ever shooting the gun and start carrying it. Personally I would like to see more gun shops to stop stocking crap tons of generic holsters...and stop giving BS info to customers as facts. IMHO some contribute to the stupidity we encounter at the range and on the streets.
Just my thoughts

 

[Ark]

I'm all for living in a free society, but I definitely think the gun-owning community should confront ignorance, incompetence, and willful stupidity wherever possible. If we don't police each other, eventually somebody is going to decide to do it for us.

 

[chemteach]

Just weighing in with some points: I would like to see constitutional carry. It's a right after all. I think anyone with a firearm should, on their own initiative, seek as much training as they can and then practice, regardless if it's for your job, for hunting, competitive sport shooting, home or personal defense. I believe those who visit and participate on this forum are here partly to do just that. I would like to see data that relates training and lack of training in the general population to both positive and negative outcomes in the applications of CCW, such as, BBI's 0 hits out of 2 shots ending the attack. Would that be in the positive or negative outcomes column? Used to be we were schooled in firearms by our parents, primarily our dads. They taught us safety, how and when to shoot. That's how I started. I don't know all the answers to educating all shooters, but I hope I can engage those folks that are at least receptive to being helped in a friendly, non-threatening, non-pontifical manner. Which also means I need to realize my own need to continue to learn, train and practice.

 

[NHT3]

Typical INGO.. thread is off the rails. Original question fell by the wayside about two pages ago LOL.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[Alpo]

It more or less went off the rails when you closed your original topic with this:

I doubt most people that carry have a good answer for any of the questions. If you don’t have some idea of what the answers might be wouldn’t it be prudent to at least ponder the questions or leave your pistol at home?

See, it didn't appear that you really wanted a discussion. You've made your mind up already.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I would like to see data that relates training and lack of training in the general population to both positive and negative outcomes in the applications of CCW, such as, BBI's 0 hits out of 2 shots ending the attack. Would that be in the positive or negative outcomes column?.

Well, no. The gun was to accomplish a robbery, and the suspect already had the goods. It's reasonable based on all available data that the suspect would have simply left at that point, and as this is an active case I won't elaborate further. The shots didn't "end the attack" they just hurried the escape.

For my stats, it's considered a tie. The suspect completed the crime and escaped unharmed, but the victim was not injured. Had the victim been injured, a loss. Had the suspect failed to escape with the property for any reason (dropped it and fled, been disabled, whatever) it's counted as a win.

As far as a contrast among the trained and general population, you can find it: https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Tal...elf+defense+what+the+experts+what+you+to+know

You won't get an exact X% vs Y%, but the chapter on "Why people lose" taken from the general population vs the win rate of the students of Tom Givens should answer your question.

 

[chemteach]

Well, no. The gun was to accomplish a robbery, and the suspect already had the goods. It's reasonable based on all available data that the suspect would have simply left at that point, and as this is an active case I won't elaborate further. The shots didn't "end the attack" they just hurried the escape.

For my stats, it's considered a tie. The suspect completed the crime and escaped unharmed, but the victim was not injured. Had the victim been injured, a loss. Had the suspect failed to escape with the property for any reason (dropped it and fled, been disabled, whatever) it's counted as a win.

As far as a contrast among the trained and general population, you can find it: https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Tal...elf+defense+what+the+experts+what+you+to+know

You won't get an exact X% vs Y%, but the chapter on "Why people lose" taken from the general population vs the win rate of the students of Tom Givens should answer your question.

Thanks for the tip. Checked out the book and ordered it. Many of the contributors are affiliated with the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network. Good luck on your case.

 

[lonehoosier]

.

 

[GIJEW]

I'm not sure the situation is as bleak as it's been described. Stats seem to show death from gun accidents to have dropped despite an increase in gun ownership. Maybe that's just improvement in trauma medicine? We can't do much about idiots who think they know what they're doing because they watch TV, but many of those new gun owners seem to know that they don't know and seem to be open to getting trained. I think the challenge there is to get them to go to the next level instead of just punching holes from a static position at 20'.
I'm thinking there are 3 reasons why people will do that:
1)Safety concerns that aren't just abstract. Let them "know what they don't know" and where to get the extra training, and done.
2)Fun & 3)Ego. Competition and seeing a progression in skill is fun and motivating.
It seems like most of the LGS are making an effort in training people but adding competition could be added. Parabellum does have USPSA matches but having a spectrum of things to ease people into competition would be good. something ranging from:
"Winchester Challenge">bowling pin matches>IDPA/USPSA.

 

[NHT3]

Stats can be deceiving. How many people do you imagine leave bars every Saturday evening drunk and manage to make it home in one piece. No doubt in my mind the situation is bleak but I certainly don't have an answer for it. I'm certain less than 10% of the people carrying guns and probably 5% of gun owners in general have had any training. I base that on what I see while doing RSO work. It's the exception rather than the rule to see someone shooting that knows the basics of safety and gun handling.

NRA Life Member / Basic Pistol instructor / RSO

"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard"
Unnamed Navy Seal

“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

Aron Bright

 

[Jackson]

You're talking about problems that we can't really solve. If you'd just get people shooting at your range to stop covering me with muzzles every time the take their guns from the back table to the stall, I'd be happy.

 

[Jackson]

Typical INGO.. thread is off the rails. Original question fell by the wayside about two pages ago LOL.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

What was the original question? Have I considered those things? Yes, I think so.

 

[NHT3]

You're talking about problems that we can't really solve. If you'd just get people shooting at your range to stop covering me with muzzles every time the take their guns from the back table to the stall, I'd be happy.

I don't own a range but the range where I RSO that does not happen because there is an RSO in the range all the time and no one handles a firearm off the firing line. Problem solved. How easy was that?
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[Jackson]

I don't own a range but the range where I RSO that does not happen because there is an RSO in the range all the time and no one handles a firearm off the firing line. Problem solved. How easy was that?
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

Well, any range really. What I mean is that I try to worry about things within my scope of influence. I recommend others do the same. :-)

I thought you RSO'd at parabellum?

 

[NHT3]

Well, any range really. What I mean is that I try to worry about things within my scope of influence. I recommend others do the same. :-)

I thought you RSO'd at parabellum?

Nope, Greenwood Point Blank. That was my status as of yesterday. Some days it's like herding cats to get everyone to stay on the line with firearms but most of us (RSOs) try really hard to make that happen. I won't tell you I've never seen a firearm on the table in the back but it's addressed immediately when we see it.
I had a guy leave a couple weeks ago because I hurt his feelings and disrespected him in front of his son when I told him to take his pistol off the table and get it on the firing line. He complained at the range counter and to the manager about my behavior. It's not the first time I encountered that attitude but it gives you some idea of why it's difficult to keep a range safe.

 

[Trigger Time]

Nope, Greenwood Point Blank. That was my status as of yesterday. Some days it's like herding cats to get everyone to stay on the line with firearms but most of us (RSOs) try really hard to make that happen. I won't tell you I've never seen a firearm on the table in the back but it's addressed immediately when we see it.
I had a guy leave a couple weeks ago because I hurt his feelings and disrespected him in front of his son when I told him to take his pistol off the table and get it on the firing line. He complained at the range counter and to the manager about my behavior. It's not the first time I encountered that attitude but it gives you some idea of why it's difficult to keep a range safe.

Like you and I were talking about the other day, people just need to leave their ego at the door when they go to the range.
There can only be one chief at the range and the RSO is it. If you dont like it, buy some land and dont go to a public or private range.

NHT3 is one of the best RSO's you could have and if someone is having a problem with him, I can tell you he is not the one that's the problem.

People need to get their heads out of their asses. You arent playing with legos. These are firearms. They will kill you or someone else if you play dumb and I plan on staying alive. If you kill me I'm gonna kill you back

 

[Drail]

I was an NRA Instructor for years and the very first thing I learned about teaching is that some students think they already know more than you - and some realize that they know nothing. The latter made teaching so much easier and produced a far safer shooter and their scores were considerably higher on the first day. All of the women would go to the range with their husbands after the training and completely outshoot them. It was hilarious. Interestingly ALL of the women approached gunhandling fully realizing they knew nothing and wanted to listen and learn and almost all of the guys thought they were Don Johnson and knew everything there was about guns. I loved teaching those women's classes. I could tell some stories.......

 

[BehindBlueI's]

On a somewhat related note, if you were robbed of your wallet and Glock about a year ago, we recovered your Glock today.