illegally modified gun, how do you tell?

[Stainer]

kstreeter, an MP5 fires f/a from a closed bolt. If you'd like some "hands on" experience with one send me a PM.

Would love some! PM inbound.

 

[vitamink]

Ak's have a 3rd pin in the side for an auto sear. It's pretty easy to tell. A friend of mine has run into two of them rather recently.

Many Ak's are shipped with a full auto bolt intact and autosears can be purchased from kvar for like 6$ so criminal conversions are easy.

I think you have a VERY valid question and kudos to you for seeking answers and wishing to help the community by taking guns away from the bad people. The first Ak was found on a traffic stop, the driver was suspended and had a warrant for not paying for all his illegitimate children. His gun would have gone down to the property room and subsequently returned to the dirt bag with 1000 misdemeanor convictions (no felonies) if the officer didn't notice the 3rd pin. The Atf came out and no more bad man! Later while searching the vehicle they found a picture of the kid that dirt bag was planning on killing along with a mask and gloves. The kid was supposed to be lured to the county fair parking lot by some crack head, and he was supposed to drive by and,... well "drive by" . The kid robbed one of his drug dealer pals earlier that week and dirt bag was the "hit man" enroute to the county fair. The dirt bag then flipped on his drug dealer pal and shut down his crack operation... I'm sure some ingo member on his way to the Co. fair passed the traffic stop on the side of the road and was upset that an officer was handling this good citizen's AK. I hope he enjoyed his fried twinky

 

[SSE]

Boy, what an interesting thread, on many levels.
I do not think anyone was trying to say that criminals should not have their guns taken away.
I think what many fear is overly zealous LEO, can you spell WACO!

 

[Hop]

That pin probably doesn't make it a machine gun though much like an auto bolt carrier in an AR doesn't make a machine gun nor a short barrel for an AR sitting in the closet doesn't make an SBR.

Maybe having that stuff isn't smart because you might need a pile of money to fight a trumped up charge.

So... Kstreeter got some hands on experience with my MP5 yesterday @ Pops. We had quit a crowd of drooling onlookers.

 

[Hkindiana]

That pin probably doesn't make it a machine gun though much like an auto bolt carrier in an AR doesn't make a machine gun nor a short barrel for an AR sitting in the closet doesn't make an SBR.

Maybe having that stuff isn't smart because you might need a pile of money to fight a trumped up charge.

So... Kstreeter got some hands on experience with my MP5 yesterday @ Pops. We had quit a crowd of drooling onlookers.

Having the pin in the weapon, or even the HOLE for the pin DOES make it an illegal machine-gun according to the BATFE. Just owning the pin is OK, but once you modify the receiver, you have committed a crime.
BTW: having a full auto bolt in an AR DOES make it an illegal machine-gun according to the BATFE - even though it would not be able to fire automatically with just that one part

 

[ryknoll3]

Having the pin in the weapon, or even the HOLE for the pin DOES make it an illegal machine-gun according to the BATFE. Just owning the pin is OK, but once you modify the receiver, you have committed a crime.
BTW: having a full auto bolt in an AR DOES make it an illegal machine-gun according to the BATFE - even though it would not be able to fire automatically with just that one part

The opinion letter I read on this stated that having parts that enable the weapon to fire full auto doesn't automatically make it an illegal machine gun (unless you have all of the parts). They basically said that if you put an auto bolt carrier in (or other M16 fire control group parts), and we (ATF Tech Branch) can make it fire auto, you are in trouble.

Thing is, most of the high-quality bolt groups and carriers out there now are auto carriers. They are more reliable than the semi's because they have the right mass. If the presence of the carrier alone made it illegal, then LOT's of AR builders out there would be in BIG trouble.

That case with Olaffson (sp?) in WI is a good instance of this. His gun malfunctioned causing a double fire. The ATF was called and they took the AR and were able to duplicate this in their lab. Because he had some full-auto parts (which didn't make it fire automatically, there was a malfunction) he was convicted of a transferring an illegal machine gun.

So basically, having an auto carrier in your AR DOES NOT make it an illegal MG. If you had one in your AR and for some reason the ATF took possession of it and were able to make it fire automatically, you would be in trouble.

Finally, if you have that third hole drilled in the AK, or the autosear hole drilled in the AR, in the ATF's eyes, that IS a machine gun. It doesn't have to fire automatically, the mere presence of the HOLE for that pin makes it a machine gun. There's similar rulings for HK firearms (hole for the front pin of the lower group) and M1A's (rear lug with the appropriate hole).

 

[E5RANGER375]

Having the pin in the weapon, or even the HOLE for the pin DOES make it an illegal machine-gun according to the BATFE. Just owning the pin is OK, but once you modify the receiver, you have committed a crime.
BTW: having a full auto bolt in an AR DOES make it an illegal machine-gun according to the BATFE - even though it would not be able to fire automatically with just that one part

can you prove the above statement please?

 

[762Mike]

Finally, if you have that third hole drilled in the AK, or the autosear hole drilled in the AR, in the ATF's eyes, that IS a machine gun. It doesn't have to fire automatically, the mere presence of the HOLE for that pin makes it a machine gun. There's similar rulings for HK firearms (hole for the front pin of the lower group) and M1A's (rear lug with the appropriate hole).

That is true, just having the third hole (even an empty third hole) with no automatic fire ability is still an MG in the case of the AK. Once it's drilled, it's done for.

 

[Hop]

ATF

 

[vitamink]

3rd pin bad.

full auto bolt ok in either AR or AK

Further on olofson from the trial:

"Four of the AR-15's fire control components were parts from M-16 rifles: the trigger, hammer, disconnector, and selector switch."

"Later, using civilian-grade ammunition, he conducted two more test-fires of the weapon in the unmarked mode. In one of those tests, he held the trigger down and the gun fired all of its ammunition (twenty rounds) before stopping. He also emptied two twenty-round magazines in five- or ten-round bursts by depressing, holding, and releasing the trigger several times. The government's expert stated that such firing capabilities did not result from a "hammer-follow" malfunction but rather were intended features of the gun."

And don't forget about kernicki, the person who testified that Olofson built him the gun stating that it fired "full auto".

for whatever reason, people still believe Olofson is innocent.

 

[rrmark]

I believe Colt even used the F/A bolt carrier group in the SP1 for a while.

 

[Stainer]

So... Kstreeter got some hands on experience with my MP5 yesterday @ Pops. We had quit a crowd of drooling onlookers.

And it was awesome! Met a fellow INGOer, learned an enormous amount of info in a short amount of time, and got to shoot an awesome piece of machinery! I have never seen a crowd form like that at Pops, felt like we were fish in a tank because of all the people on the other side of the glass! Thanks again Hop and if you ever want to go shoot again, let me know and I will bring the ammo!

 

[INGunGuy]

So let me start by saying I do not want any information what so ever on how to illegally make a gun full auto! What I would like to know is, if I stop someone on the street and they have a Mac, Uzi, Tec-9, AR on them, how would I be able to tell if they have illegally modified it to shoot fully auto? Obviously I will not be able to shoot the firearm on the street, so please do not give that as an answer. Mods if this is not appropriate feel free to delete. Thanks to those with the knowledge.

I know this is a pretty old post, and sorry for not responding sooner, but why would you be concerned about getting information on how to make a gun full auto? The information is NOT illegal, only to use the information to make a gun full auto is illegal.

INGunGuy

 

[jeremy]

Generally only Belt fed guns use the Open Bolt method, the majority of Magazine fed guns I can think of fire from the Closed Bolt...

Actually their were several Manufacturers that used FA LPKs in AR's in the 70's, 80's and into the 90's. BATF&E has spoken on this as an OK practice. BATF&E has also spoken on the on the use of the FA BCG in ARs as an OK practice as long as it is NOT paired to a Lower with a FA LPK...

As soon as I find the Links I will add them...

 

[Stainer]

I know this is a pretty old post, and sorry for not responding sooner, but why would you be concerned about getting information on how to make a gun full auto? The information is NOT illegal, only to use the information to make a gun full auto is illegal.

INGunGuy

My main concern was mods thinking I was trying to find a backdoor way to illegally mod a firearm. I don't want that on this site, and I don't think anyone else does either. I think it was a respect for the mods type post in order to make sure I could gather information without getting banned.

 

[alfahornet]

Generally only Belt fed guns use the Open Bolt method, the majority of Magazine fed guns I can think of fire from the Closed Bolt...

Uzis and Macs both fire from open bolt. Advantage is cooling factor at cost of accuracy and safety

 

[INGunGuy]

My main concern was mods thinking I was trying to find a backdoor way to illegally mod a firearm. I don't want that on this site, and I don't think anyone else does either. I think it was a respect for the mods type post in order to make sure I could gather information without getting banned.

Yea I hear ya... but just remember this google has one helluva lot of information good bad and ugly... LOL

INGunGuy

 

[ekg98]

Semi auto Colt AR15's come from the factory with M16 carriers now. There was a atf letter on this.

 

[rrmark]

This was to have happened in the late 70s. That was just the information I had. Although your letter from the ATF did state that the use of M16 parts that were modified to SP1 configuration was OK. Like a neutered selector switch. I have a Auto Ord 1927 that was customized with the addition of a selector switch from a F/A Thompson. This is very common to use as a bolt hold open, so you don't have to use a "Third hand" to change the drum.

 

[redpitbull44]

I'm gonna go ahead and throw this out there to you. HK weapons of the delayed roller blowback type (G3, 91, 33, MP5/10/40 etc) are all modular. That is to say that they can accept several types of similar pistol grips. If you install a full auto bolt carrier in an HK style rifle, it is still a semi auto. It is still legal. If you install a semi auto trigger pack in a modified to fit 3+ position (2 or 3 round burst, full auto, etc) lower/pistol grip, even with a full auto bolt carrier, it is FULLY LEGAL. You can even install a full auto trigger pack with a semi auto bolt carrier, and that is fully legal as well!!! The only two things that are illegal to do on HK style weapons are:

1. Remove the shelf that the front of the lower rests on and drill it to accept the full auto style front pin (or any hole drilled in that region in general).

and

2. Modify a full auto TRIGGER PACK (separate self contained unit from the lower, that drops into the lower) to fit into a modified 3+ position lower.

I said all that to say, if you find an HK style weapon with a 3+ position lower, function check it first, because HK and HK clone guys like to put their semi auto trigger packs in what we call clipped and pinned lowers. Clipped and pinned refers to the modification necessary to fit the lower onto the rifle without modification to the receiver. This modification opens up the area between the ears on the front of the lower, and then the head and tip of the pin are separated from the center of the pin, and glued into the pin holes to give the appearance of a full auto. THIS IS FULLY LEGAL!!!!
Here is a link to what I am talking about
And some pictures for quick reference, but really, check out the link...

^Front View. Notice how its been opened up.^

^F/A VS Semi^
vJust another view of a clipped and pinned FULLY LEGAL lower.v