illegally modified gun, how do you tell?

[samot]

I will agree with 95% of the above post !
except for this part
"You can even install a full auto trigger pack with a semi auto bolt carrier, and that is fully legal as well!!!"
to do this, you would have to illegally modify the FA pack to fit a semi gun ! That IS NOT legal !!
you cannot legaly modify a FA pack to fit over the semi shelf !! That modification is a machine gun !!!!
And the other 2.5% is
your pics of semi vs FA packs !
Look really close at that FA pack !!!! It appears to me to have been modified in the shelf area ......

This was my hole negativity behind this thread !! It takes a well versed person to know the ins & outs of just the HK & clone platforms, much less all the other EBRs running around.
Obviously Redpitbull has done his homework in the HK world !
It has taken me years to learn all this crap & im ONLY "into" the HK stuff !!
There is no way in hell for someone to get 1 range visit with a host HK clone & then consider themselves knowledgable enuf to determine if it has been illegally moddified!!

The only thing i would look for on an HK / clone would be the presence of a hole drilled in the semi shelf !! which would require the patrol officer to disasemble said firearm on the side of the road.
I do not find that prudent for a pratrole officer !

I AM NOT A LAWYER , THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE !

 

[xmas_asn]

For ARs if you look at the receiver and there are three pins that hold the sears in then its auto or burst capable.

 

[E5RANGER375]

For ARs if you look at the receiver and there are three pins that hold the sears in then its auto or burst capable.

but if it has a lightning link or a drop in auto sear it wont look any different on the outside. you will have to know what your looking at inside.

 

[Stainer]

but if it has a lightning link or a drop in auto sear it wont look any different on the outside. you will have to know what your looking at inside.

Inside you would either see the lighting link or multiple hammers right?

 

[curraheeguns]

Lightening Link & Installed

Drop In Auto Sear & Installed

Be careful on looking for third pins. A new fad is to machine a "fake" third pin on the outside of a semi-auto AR-15 receiver to make it appear to have the third pin. This photo shows all the markings of a Colt M16A1 and a "third pin" and even has full auto selector markings, but if you look under the Colt markings you will see it is nothing more then a semi-auto Nodak Spud AR-15. This is 100% legal and is done by USGI gun collectors more and more.

 

[alfahornet]

Be careful on looking for third pins. A new fad is to machine a "fake" third pin on the outside of a semi-auto AR-15 receiver to make it appear to have the third pin. This photo shows all the markings of a Colt M16A1 and a "third pin" and even has full auto selector markings, but if you look under the Colt markings you will see it is nothing more then a semi-auto Nodak Spud AR-15. This is 100% legal and is done by USGI gun collectors more and more.

Good post and excellent info. Didn't know anyone went thru the trouble to create the illusion of the sear pin. I am really wondering now how it looks on the inside, or better how deep the 'sear hole' is. I would have sworn that if it's drilled all the way through it is an MG (unless ATF approved some fancy internal sear block). I guess it isn't here and just the illusion is created. Just my

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Have you seen an ATF letter declaring it legal? If you indicate the sear hole (mark it with a punch or other device) you've made a MG. If you aren't an 07/SOT you're in dodo. Clearly this maching indicates the location of the sear hole. I don't think I would do it without a hall pass.

Be careful on looking for third pins. A new fad is to machine a "fake" third pin on the outside of a semi-auto AR-15 receiver to make it appear to have the third pin. This photo shows all the markings of a Colt M16A1 and a "third pin" and even has full auto selector markings, but if you look under the Colt markings you will see it is nothing more then a semi-auto Nodak Spud AR-15. This is 100% legal and is done by USGI gun collectors more and more.

 

[curraheeguns]

Have you seen an ATF letter declaring it legal?

Yes, NoDak Spud has the letter and I have seen copies of it.

This is done on a CNC machine on the outside. It is only a circle inscribed into the outside of the receiver and doesn't go in very deep. I would say it is maybe as deep as the manufacturers information engraving.

 

[CountryBoy19]

If you indicate the sear hole (mark it with a punch or other device) you've made a MG.

Reference on this? That is the first time I've heard of it, and I like to think I have a very intimate knowledge of NFA firearms and have yet to hear anything remotely resembling that. From from I know, the hole has to actually be there... Has anybody been prosecuted for having a mark locating the hole?

Yes, NoDak Spud has the letter and I have seen copies of it.

This is done on a CNC machine on the outside. It is only a circle inscribed into the outside of the receiver and doesn't go in very deep. I would say it is maybe as deep as the manufacturers information engraving.

This^^ It's done like engraving, it's just inscribed on the outside.

 

[rrmark]

If you go to the AR-15, "Retro" section. You will find some that go to no ends to make their retro as outwardly correct as possible. I have two, a mod 604 and a mod 649.
I have a 1927 A-1 that has been converted to a SBR with the full auto selector and three finger pivot plate to work as a bolt hold-back to facilitate the loading of the drum. The trigger frame is marked full auto and single. It is also OK to use a modified 1928 trigger frame for the same purpose.

 

[Hop]

I would love to see case history on some of this stuff. The ATF can't send letters and guidelines out and claim that it's law.

Scribing/engraving a circle on a gun to make it look authentic is nothing compared to this guy. He had 19 illegally converted guns and got only 3 years!

USAO Press Release - Alexandria Man Sentenced to Three Years for Making Illegal Uzi Machine Guns

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Reference on this? That is the first time I've heard of it, and I like to think I have a very intimate knowledge of NFA firearms and have yet to hear anything remotely resembling that. From from I know, the hole has to actually be there... Has anybody been prosecuted for having a mark locating the hole?

This^^ It's done like engraving, it's just inscribed on the outside.

BATFE Firearms Technology Branch.

The question was when have we created a machine gun and are required to send in a Form 2. I was told once the sear hole has been indicated and marked the receiver is in a state it can be "readily restored" as defined under the NFA, and at that point, even if the hole is not drilled, it is a machine gun.

Don't know if anyone has been convicted or not, and don't really care. I have a hall pass. My question was one of an administrative nature. At what point of the manufacturing process are we required to submit a Form 2 when we build a machine gun. I do know that none of the jig makers will provide jigs with the sear hole present.

I'm not saying Corey is wrong - just that it seems to conflict with information I received from the ATF. Like that ever happens, right?

From the NFA:

The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed
to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more
than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of
the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of
any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and
exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use
in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of
parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in
the possession or under the control of a person.

 

[Hkindiana]

BATFE Firearms Technology Branch.

The question was when have we created a machine gun and are required to send in a Form 2. I was told once the sear hole has been indicated and marked the receiver is in a state it can be "readily restored" as defined under the NFA, and at that point, even if the hole is not drilled, it is a machine gun.

Don't know if anyone has been convicted or not, and don't really care. I have a hall pass. My question was one of an administrative nature. At what point of the manufacturing process are we required to submit a Form 2 when we build a machine gun. I do know that none of the jig makers will provide jigs with the sear hole present.

I'm not saying Corey is wrong - just that it seems to conflict with information I received from the ATF. Like that ever happens, right?

From the NFA:

The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed
to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more
than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of
the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of
any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and
exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use
in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of
parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in
the possession or under the control of a person.

Maybe the fake engraved pin hole is not in "exactly" the right position. Then, it would not aid in the manufacture of an illegal machine-gun.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I remembered this thread from when I started on INGO and I always remembered it.

So I have to ask kstreeter/stainer, if I had an UZI/Mac10/AK/AR in my back seat when you pulled me over for a traffic violation what would you do?

FYI I have a valid LTCH and I inform you of the weapon in the backseat as well as the one on my hip, they are not visible.

 

[Stainer]

I was going to send you a PM, but I will just throw it out there for everyone so no one has suspicion that super secret stuff it going on. So I stopped you for a traffic violation, let's say you didn't signal your turn. I pull you over, I approach the vehicle, I ask for your license and registration. You inform me (as per your above post) that you have a weapon on your hip as well as in the back seat. I tell you that as long as they stay there we will have no problems. If my spidey senses get to tingling(you are acting very nervous for no reason at all) I will tell you to place your hands outside of the vehicle where I can see them. However if you are calm and nothing seems out of place, I will simply ask for your license and registration and, at this time, ask you if you have a valid LTCH. If you say yes, I probably won't even ask to see it as I can confirm through communications. I return to my car (or I might just stand at your vehicle and conduct my checks over the radio) conduct my checks on you, the vehicle, your ltch, and I make the all important decision as to wether I give you a verbal warning, written warning, or issue a citation. If there is no reason for me to take the investigation past this point, this is where it ends. I return to your vehicle, I give you your documents along with whatever I have chosen to give you, and you are on your way.

Now let's say something is wrong (your license is suspended with a prior conviction, you have a warrant, the vehicle is stolen, you don't have an LTCH), here is what would probably happen. I would have another officer come to the scene. I would get you out of the vehicle and ensure you keep your hands up the entire route. I would secure you in handcuffs, remove the firearm from your hip (preferably still in the holster) and secure it in my patrol car. I then return to your vehicle and inventory the vehicle per my departments policy prior to towing. When I come across your Mac10(for the sake of conversation since this is in the NFA forum), I immediately recognize that for this particular gun there is potential that it is a machine gun. At this point, I will read you miranda to inform you of your rights since I want to ask you some questions and you are in custody.

Let's say you agree, I ask you if it is an MG and you say yes and your paperwork is in the pouch of the carrying bag it is in. I verify it is there and secure all of it in my patrol car.

Let's say you agree to miranda but don't want to talk (your rights), I secure the firearm in my car and go from there.

I run your firearms to make sure they are not stolen. Let's say they are not. I take them to the city county building where there is a clearing barrel, I clear them and come to a final conclusion as much as I can about the Mac10 as to whether it is an MG or not. Once it is cleared I can try and check the sear test, but if that doesn't work, I don't care. I let the guys in firearms investigations know what I think and they can check it out later to verify what it is.

Your firearms are secured in the property room, I complete my reports, I return to service.

Now let me say that this is my way of doing things. I can not attest for other officers. I am not the most seasoned officer, but what I do know very well are the firearms laws, and what I don't know completely off the top of my head, I do know where to find the answer at.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I was going to send you a PM, but I will just throw it out there for everyone so no one has suspicion that super secret stuff it going on. So I stopped you for a traffic violation, let's say you didn't signal your turn. I pull you over, I approach the vehicle, I ask for your license and registration. You inform me (as per your above post) that you have a weapon on your hip as well as in the back seat. I tell you that as long as they stay there we will have no problems. If my spidey senses get to tingling(you are acting very nervous for no reason at all) I will tell you to place your hands outside of the vehicle where I can see them. However if you are calm and nothing seems out of place, I will simply ask for your license and registration and, at this time, ask you if you have a valid LTCH. If you say yes, I probably won't even ask to see it as I can confirm through communications. I return to my car, conduct my checks on you, the vehicle, your ltch, and I make the all important decision as to wether I give you a verbal warning, written warning, or issue a citation. If there is no reason for me to take the investigation past this point, this is where it ends. I return to your vehicle, I give you your documents along with whatever I have chosen to give you, and you are on your way.

Now let's say something is wrong (your license is suspended with a prior conviction, you have a warrant, the vehicle is stolen, you don't have an LTCH), here is what would probably happen. I would have another officer come to the scene. I would get you out of the vehicle and ensure you keep your hands up the entire route. I would secure you in handcuffs, remove the firearm from your hip (preferably still in the holster) and secure it in my patrol car. I then return to your vehicle and inventory the vehicle per my departments policy prior to towing. When I come across your Mac10(for the sake of conversation since this is in the NFA forum), I immediately recognize that for this particular gun there is potential that it is a machine gun. At this point, I will read you miranda to inform you of your rights since I want to ask you some questions and you are in custody.

Let's say you agree, I ask you if it is an MG and you say yes and your paperwork is in the pouch of the carrying bag it is in. I verify it is there and secure all of it in my patrol car.

Let's say you agree to miranda but don't want to talk (your rights), I secure the firearm in my car and go from there.

I run your firearms to make sure they are not stolen. Let's say they are not. I take them to the city county building where there is a clearing barrel, I clear them and come to a final conclusion as much as I can about the Mac10 as to whether it is an MG or not. Once it is cleared I can try and check the sear test, but if that doesn't work, I don't care. I let the guys in firearms investigations know what I think and they can check it out later to verify what it is.

Your firearms are secured in the property room, I complete my reports, I return to service.

Now let me say that this is my way of doing things. I can not attest for other officers. I am not the most seasoned officer, but what I do know very well are the firearms laws, and what I don't know completely off the top of my head, I do know where to find the answer at.

Very good. I find nothing at fault here I just couldn't tell from your earlier posts what your intentions were on the side of the road.

Thank you for your very prompt, complete response.

 

[Stainer]

Very good. I find nothing at fault here I just couldn't tell from your earlier posts what your intentions were on the side of the road.

Thank you for your very prompt, complete response.

No problem. Now I will add a little bit as I thought of some more scenarios(of which there are an endless number.

But let's say this, I go to grab your mac and it is locked open and there is no magazine inserted. I can see into the chamber and I am 100% certain that it is clear. Might I do a check there on the roadside, maybe. And I say maybe because I would only do it if I am 100% certain the gun is clear and there is even a reason for me to mess with it. I'm not going to fiddle fudge your gun just to play with it. If I wanted to do that I would go to the LGS and play with theirs. I'm also not going to go breaking down your gun on the roadside to do a full inspection of the gun. I will do what is reasonable to check it and if I can't make a determination, I will let someone else check it who has more experience and will be in a much more controlled environment.