I'm now very confused

[Bill of Rights]

THANK YOU BOR for clarification! You the man!

As I told you in PM, I'm happy to help. The info is out there, it's just hard to sift through, since the states don't follow one model for websites, nor do they have one single agency that is responsible for firearm ownership monitoring via permission slips. Some states delegate it to the Attorney General, others to the State Police/Dept. of Public Safety, and some (California) have no state-level info available, as each county sheriff controls the number of permits s/he issues. For others who may be searching out info, you can always PM me, or you can look in this forum at the "Sticky" threads at the top. There is a thread that addresses which states recognize Indiana and there is a thread I updated within the last week or so that tells where you can look to find the info on each state's website, if available.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[poppy]

Excellent work, BOR. I just have a request from you on your sticky post entitled "links for recognition/reciprocity lists". In particular I am referring to post #2, seventh sentence which states "AZ will get you NM". Not quite sure what you mean there.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Excellent work, BOR. I just have a request from you on your sticky post entitled "links for recognition/reciprocity lists". In particular I am referring to post #2, seventh sentence which states "AZ will get you NM". Not quite sure what you mean there.

I presently have my Indiana LTCH, my Utah permit, and my Arizona CFP. The only state that I don't get with my IN or UT, that I do with AZ, is NM.

I can see how that would be a little confusing. I'll amend it now. Thanks!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[KellyinAvon]

Just to review: being a lawful carrier of a handgun is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. First, guns ain't cheap. Second, ammo ain't cheap. Third, holsters ain't cheap. Fourth, devices to hold spare ammunition such as magazines, speed loaders and carriers for such devices ain't cheap either. Training including range time and classes? Wow! Let's not forget the LTCH ain't cheap either, and that costs of LTCHs fund police departments far beyond the cost of processing. Just ask the Indiana Sheriff's Association about that.

Now we get to think about everywhere we are going to go and have a plan in case we must venture into an area where we can't lawfully carry a handgun (or firearm of any kind for that matter.) Need to mail a package? Throw the recycle items in the big recycle dumpster that happens to be in a school parking lot? Is your church also a school? Guess what, you have to plan ahead. I'm not even talking about the places with "No Berettas" or "No Colt-Walkers" signs that do not have force of law here in Indiana. No school carrying (K-12 in this state, included vacant lots owned by a school) and court houses.

Now you're venturing out and about and you cross a line on a map. Guess what? You now get to know and follow a whole different set of laws based on your cardinal direction of travel.
Traveling West: this one's easy, you can't get out of your car with your firearm. Oddly though you don't have to inform a police officer you are in possession of a handgun.

Traveling East: Well this is the state that elected Howard Metzenbaum to office for half a century so you can expect some anti-2A. Can't carry at church, on a university (not just K-12 as in Indiana), in any LEO Station. You must inform a LEO immediately if pulled over and "No Berettas" and "No Colt-Walkers" signs DO have force of law here. Open Carry is legal, but a permit is required for vehicle carry. You can go in a bar, but can't drink while armed.

Traveling North: Must inform the LEO immediately if pulled over. Can't carry in sports arenas or stadiums, or entertainment venues holding >2500. Can carry on college campus, just not in the dorms or classrooms although that might not apply to the the Wolverines, Spartans and Wayne Staters, not sure. Can't carry in church unless the church says it's cool. Can't carry in bars IF the bar makes most of it's money from alcohol sale consumed by the glass on the premises (I'll need to check out Chili's financial statements before entering). "No Berettas" and "No Colt-Walkers" signs DO NOT have force of law here, unless maybe they do.

Traveling South: No "must inform" and no force of law on "No Berettas" and "No Colt-Walkers" signs. No LEO Station carry, a courthouse if "solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom". No carry at any government meeting or assembly unless you are a member, or "in an establishment with a beer and liquor license in the area portioned for the consumption of alcohol on the premises" (does this mean wait by the lobster tank, not in the bar at Red Lobster??)

WOW!! Just, WOW!!! That made my brain hurt! For me to venture off my little patch of Avon and travel anywhere lawfully with a handgun for a distance of 1-150 miles in any direction requires more research than a lot of Graduate-level papers (on an actual paper there would be citations from handgunlaw.US and all five state's laws. I done did graduate so I ain't citing crap no more!!)

Handgunlaw.us

 

[actaeon277]

Just to review: being a lawful carrier of a handgun is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. First, guns ain't cheap. Second, ammo ain't cheap. Third, holsters ain't cheap. Fourth, devices to hold spare ammunition such as magazines, speed loaders and carriers for such devices ain't cheap either. Training including range time and classes? Wow! Let's not forget the LTCH ain't cheap either, and that costs of LTCHs fund police departments far beyond the cost of processing. Just ask the Indiana Sheriff's Association about that.

Now we get to think about everywhere we are going to go and have a plan in case we must venture into an area where we can't lawfully carry a handgun (or firearm of any kind for that matter.) Need to mail a package? Throw the recycle items in the big recycle dumpster that happens to be in a school parking lot? Is your church also a school? Guess what, you have to plan ahead. I'm not even talking about the places with "No Berettas" or "No Colt-Walkers" signs that do not have force of law here in Indiana. No school carrying (K-12 in this state, included vacant lots owned by a school) and court houses.

Now you're venturing out and about and you cross a line on a map. Guess what? You now get to know and follow a whole different set of laws based on your cardinal direction of travel.
Traveling West: this one's easy, you can't get out of your car with your firearm. Oddly though you don't have to inform a police officer you are in possession of a handgun.

Traveling East: Well this is the state that elected Howard Metzenbaum to office for half a century so you can expect some anti-2A. Can't carry at church, on a university (not just K-12 as in Indiana), in any LEO Station. You must inform a LEO immediately if pulled over and "No Berettas" and "No Colt-Walkers" signs DO have force of law here. Open Carry is legal, but a permit is required for vehicle carry. You can go in a bar, but can't drink while armed.

Traveling North: Must inform the LEO immediately if pulled over. Can't carry in sports arenas or stadiums, or entertainment venues holding >2500. Can carry on college campus, just not in the dorms or classrooms although that might not apply to the the Wolverines, Spartans and Wayne Staters, not sure. Can't carry in church unless the church says it's cool. Can't carry in bars IF the bar makes most of it's money from alcohol sale consumed by the glass on the premises (I'll need to check out Chili's financial statements before entering). "No Berettas" and "No Colt-Walkers" signs DO NOT have force of law here, unless maybe they do.

Traveling South: No "must inform" and no force of law on "No Berettas" and "No Colt-Walkers" signs. No LEO Station carry, a courthouse if "solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom". No carry at any government meeting or assembly unless you are a member, or "in an establishment with a beer and liquor license in the area portioned for the consumption of alcohol on the premises" (does this mean wait by the lobster tank, not in the bar at Red Lobster??)

WOW!! Just, WOW!!! That made my brain hurt! For me to venture off my little patch of Avon and travel anywhere lawfully with a handgun for a distance of 1-150 miles in any direction requires more research than a lot of Graduate-level papers (on an actual paper there would be citations from handgunlaw.US and all five state's laws. I done did graduate so I ain't citing crap no more!!)

Handgunlaw.us

Yes. I love it when people say guns aren't "regulated".

 

[alabasterjar]

To take KellyinAvon's post a step further down the wormhole, my sister is getting married in Washington State later this year. My wife & I have decided to take 2-1/2 weeks driving across the country with the kids as a vacation & to make her wedding a stop along the way. Although I have the paid CCW app on my phone & tablet, I still had to make a spreadsheet identifying the states that we would (or could potentially) be travelling in & the handguns laws of each state. We both have our Utah permit, so that gains us Nebraska & Washington, but we still have to travel through the People's Republik of Illinois and I have made it known that Oregon is a no-go (good friend of ours lives in Portland, but we wouldn't be covered under peaceable journey laws if we visited).

Couple the idiosyncrasies of each state's handgun laws (are weapons permitted at State Parks, National Parks, Private Parks, etc) with trying to find places to camp between here & there & back adds up to a big bottle of advil and a bigger bottle of rum. While I think I have covered my bases & have planned our trip to keep us legal, there's still doubt in the back of my head that I missed something & could end up in a heap of trouble if I'm wrong & cross paths with the law. We'll be pulling a pop-up, so speeding shouldn't be an issue & I grew out of the vices that would have gained the law's attention in my younger days...

 

[Bill of Rights]

To take KellyinAvon's post a step further down the wormhole, my sister is getting married in Washington State later this year. My wife & I have decided to take 2-1/2 weeks driving across the country with the kids as a vacation & to make her wedding a stop along the way. Although I have the paid CCW app on my phone & tablet, I still had to make a spreadsheet identifying the states that we would (or could potentially) be travelling in & the handguns laws of each state. We both have our Utah permit, so that gains us Nebraska & Washington, but we still have to travel through the People's Republik of Illinois and I have made it known that Oregon is a no-go (good friend of ours lives in Portland, but we wouldn't be covered under peaceable journey laws if we visited).

Couple the idiosyncrasies of each state's handgun laws (are weapons permitted at State Parks, National Parks, Private Parks, etc) with trying to find places to camp between here & there & back adds up to a big bottle of advil and a bigger bottle of rum. While I think I have covered my bases & have planned our trip to keep us legal, there's still doubt in the back of my head that I missed something & could end up in a heap of trouble if I'm wrong & cross paths with the law. We'll be pulling a pop-up, so speeding shouldn't be an issue & I grew out of the vices that would have gained the law's attention in my younger days...

If you are legal to carry in WA state and legal to carry in Indiana, and your trip is from one to the other, why would Peaceable Journey not cover you? If you made a side trip while in WA, sure, I understand, but on the trip out or back... what am I missing?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[alabasterjar]

I may not have a proper understanding of how Peaceable Journey is interpreted and applied, so if I'm off base, please school me!

My family will be driving across country and camping along the way. Peaceable Journey, as I have come to understand it, covers me from point to point, not from origin to ultimate destination. For example, I am covered driving across Illinois as long as I am abel to possess in Iowa, but can not/should not tarry while in the state of Illinois - I have been given the impression that even a lunch break could be interpreted as tarrying. While I understand that in this example I can carry while in my vehicle (in Illinois), getting out of my vehicle (bathroom stops w/4 kids & wife, food, check the trailer, etc) becomes "sticky".

Or, in the case of my Oregon comment - it appears that Oregon is at least as hostile, if not more so, than Illinois to gun owners. Under the Peaceable Journey statute, if we were to make a visit to our friends in Portland, the destination becomes a state where I cannot be in legal possession of a firearm (doesn't matter if we're visiting for days or hours) and I am not covered by Peaceable Journey.

This is a 2-1/2 week venture, camping along the way, so everything is along for the ride. The second we leave the state of Indiana, we have to be vigilant that we are legal at our destination (again, my understanding is this is point to point) or we are exposing ourselves with the local laws... Vehicle breakdown, accident, theft from our vehicle/camper, etc... All potential ways to interact with law enforcement where in interaction/investigation may require us to notify the law of our possession. I have tried to carefully pick our stops, but what if I didn't realize that campground x is actually on ACE property? What do I do then? Etc., etc.

If you are legal to carry in WA state and legal to carry in Indiana, and your trip is from one to the other, why would Peaceable Journey not cover you? If you made a side trip while in WA, sure, I understand, but on the trip out or back... what am I missing?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

Good questions. Any of our member attorneys could give you a better answer than I can, however none of them to my knowledge are also licensed to practice in Oregon. Perhaps it might be worth your while to find the online board analogous to INGO for Oregon, and use that to find a knowledgeable attorney who lives there to advise you?

My understanding of Peaceable Journey is/was the opposite of yours, that the journey included all stops along the way and especially covered were unforeseeable, unplanned and necessary stops such as you suggested, i.e. vehicle breakdown, etc. I'm tagging this thread to see what answers you get as well.

Blessings,
Bill

I may not have a proper understanding of how Peaceable Journey is interpreted and applied, so if I'm off base, please school me!

My family will be driving across country and camping along the way. Peaceable Journey, as I have come to understand it, covers me from point to point, not from origin to ultimate destination. For example, I am covered driving across Illinois as long as I am abel to possess in Iowa, but can not/should not tarry while in the state of Illinois - I have been given the impression that even a lunch break could be interpreted as tarrying. While I understand that in this example I can carry while in my vehicle (in Illinois), getting out of my vehicle (bathroom stops w/4 kids & wife, food, check the trailer, etc) becomes "sticky".

Or, in the case of my Oregon comment - it appears that Oregon is at least as hostile, if not more so, than Illinois to gun owners. Under the Peaceable Journey statute, if we were to make a visit to our friends in Portland, the destination becomes a state where I cannot be in legal possession of a firearm (doesn't matter if we're visiting for days or hours) and I am not covered by Peaceable Journey.

This is a 2-1/2 week venture, camping along the way, so everything is along for the ride. The second we leave the state of Indiana, we have to be vigilant that we are legal at our destination (again, my understanding is this is point to point) or we are exposing ourselves with the local laws... Vehicle breakdown, accident, theft from our vehicle/camper, etc... All potential ways to interact with law enforcement where in interaction/investigation may require us to notify the law of our possession. I have tried to carefully pick our stops, but what if I didn't realize that campground x is actually on ACE property? What do I do then? Etc., etc.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

My family will be driving across country and camping along the way. Peaceable Journey, as I have come to understand it, covers me from point to point, not from origin to ultimate destination. For example, I am covered driving across Illinois as long as I am abel to possess in Iowa, but can not/should not tarry while in the state of Illinois - I have been given the impression that even a lunch break could be interpreted as tarrying. While I understand that in this example I can carry while in my vehicle (in Illinois), getting out of my vehicle (bathroom stops w/4 kids & wife, food, check the trailer, etc) becomes "sticky".

Or, in the case of my Oregon comment - it appears that Oregon is at least as hostile, if not more so, than Illinois to gun owners. Under the Peaceable Journey statute, if we were to make a visit to our friends in Portland, the destination becomes a state where I cannot be in legal possession of a firearm (doesn't matter if we're visiting for days or hours) and I am not covered by Peaceable Journey.

Good questions. Any of our member attorneys could give you a better answer than I can, however none of them to my knowledge are also licensed to practice in Oregon. Perhaps it might be worth your while to find the online board analogous to INGO for Oregon, and use that to find a knowledgeable attorney who lives there to advise you?

My understanding of Peaceable Journey is/was the opposite of yours, that the journey included all stops along the way and especially covered were unforeseeable, unplanned and necessary stops such as you suggested, i.e. vehicle breakdown, etc. I'm tagging this thread to see what answers you get as well.

Blessings,
Bill

First IANAL, but I believe you both have parts of the peaceable journey law mixed up. I believe you're starting point (Indiana in this case) stays the same, destination may change though. So let's say you started here in IN and stopped at a place where it was legal, and then went through a state where it wasn't without stopping it wouldn't matter. Only if you're "destination" was illegal. If you stop other than for "brief necessary stops" in a place where you possession is illegal you are not covered, gas/bathroom would probably be okay, stopping for dinner at a sit down restaurant maybe/maybe not, stopping at a friends house to visit no, that would be your "destination". There was a prosecution/conviction in iirc NY or NJ guy flew in and was on his way to his final destination where possession was legal, he stopped and visited with someone on the way where possession was not legal. He was busted. I'll see if I can find the case.

Oregon while messed up, from what I can find out isn't as bad as IL. No permit/license needed to own/possess/purchase , so you should be okay to stop. Open carry is legal including in a vehicle, but localities can restrict unpermitted open carry. Portland is one of those that do. If you keep it unloaded while in OR (or at least where it is prohibited) you should be fine if you stop and visit your friend.

For IL as long as you have your LTCH you are good to go in the car loaded, if you stop you have to store it in a locked container/vehicle and not take it out of the vehicle except to put it in the trunk. If you were let's say staying in a hotel and wanted to take it in you would have to transport it according to IL law which means unloaded and "encased".

 

[Bill of Rights]

Hi Tim,

I recall a case kindasorta like what you're describing. The guy made a connecting flight (more precisely, he missed it) and the airline was going to put him up for the night in a hotel in NJ. They knew he was traveling with a firearm, and so as soon as he took possession of his suitcase, he was arrested for possession of a firearm yadda yadda yadda.He was found guilty, but the appellate court overturned the conviction.

What I know from memory of Peaceable Journey is that if it is lawful for you to carry at origin and at destination, you may transport unloaded and cased, out of driver's immediate reach despite local law to the contrary. The incidental stops and what constitutes same is the part I don't know, as well as stops along the way, such as to visit *with* a friend. (like if you stopped to have supper and your friend met you at the local greasy spoon.)

As you said, the latter is a gray area, but does the law require that if driving through a "no-go" state, you may only actually stop and exit the vehicle for toilet and fuel, and all meals must come through a drive-thru window? I can't say one way or the other, and obviously don't want to be a test case. I think in which state the eventual test case comes will be what sets the precedent. Will it be someone from Indiana, driving through New Mexico, which is reasonably gun-friendly, or someone from Pennsylvania, driving into New Jersey, a la Shaneen Allen, and New Jersey's restrictive laws the ones "violated". Either national reciprocity will happen or the test case will come. I'm not sure which. Both have their clear concerns and both involve precedent-setting. Either could go in our favor as well. Time, eventually, will tell.

Blessings,
Bill

First IANAL, but I believe you both have parts of the peaceable journey law mixed up. I believe you're starting point (Indiana in this case) stays the same, destination may change though. So let's say you started here in IN and stopped at a place where it was legal, and then went through a state where it wasn't without stopping it wouldn't matter. Only if you're "destination" was illegal. If you stop other than for "brief necessary stops" in a place where you possession is illegal you are not covered, gas/bathroom would probably be okay, stopping for dinner at a sit down restaurant maybe/maybe not, stopping at a friends house to visit no, that would be your "destination". There was a prosecution/conviction in iirc NY or NJ guy flew in and was on his way to his final destination where possession was legal, he stopped and visited with someone on the way where possession was not legal. He was busted. I'll see if I can find the case.

Oregon while messed up, from what I can find out isn't as bad as IL. No permit/license needed to own/possess/purchase , so you should be okay to stop. Open carry is legal including in a vehicle, but localities can restrict unpermitted open carry. Portland is one of those that do. If you keep it unloaded while in OR (or at least where it is prohibited) you should be fine if you stop and visit your friend.

For IL as long as you have your LTCH you are good to go in the car loaded, if you stop you have to store it in a locked container/vehicle and not take it out of the vehicle except to put it in the trunk. If you were let's say staying in a hotel and wanted to take it in you would have to transport it according to IL law which means unloaded and "encased".

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Peaceable journey? Why are we discussing Texas law again?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I cannot track the thread drift. OP has question about IC 35-47-2-21(b) and now we are talking Texas law. I am at a loss, so let's go back to the first post.

I may be wrong here but I take that as Indiana recognizes the Utah license only if the person holding the license is from Utah, am I correct?

You need to look at Indiana Code 35-47-2-21(b). Indiana recognizes the license to carry of any other state and foreign country as long as you are NOT a resident of Indiana.

If you are a resident of . . . Joe-juh, I say, I say, and you have a Joe-juh carry license, then you can carry in Indiana, I say, I say.

If you are a resident of Indiana, get the Larry and then carry.

If you do not have a Larry, carry a la 35-47-2-19, long gun, or don't carry until you get a Larry.

 

[Bill of Rights]

The OP's question was answered in post #12, Kirk, though clarification, as per your post #33, is always welcome, and thank you for providing it! (Dr. Seuss notwithstanding)

As to your question in post #32, we're discussing peaceable journey because of alabasterjar's post #26. He raised a question that I asked him to clarify, and that got us onto that subject instead.

And OP, "Larry" is a term arrived at hereabouts to refer to your Indiana Licence to Carry.

For everyone else about to call me for Dennying the thread, the man is asking about how to stay legal. He started off saying he was confused, and on those questions, we need to provide the best info we can.

Blessings,
Bill

Peaceable journey? Why are we discussing Texas law again?

I cannot track the thread drift. OP has question about IC 35-47-2-21(b) and now we are talking Texas law. I am at a loss, so let's go back to the first post.



You need to look at Indiana Code 35-47-2-21(b). Indiana recognizes the license to carry of any other state and foreign country as long as you are NOT a resident of Indiana.

If you are a resident of . . . Joe-juh, I say, I say, and you have a Joe-juh carry license, then you can carry in Indiana, I say, I say.

If you are a resident of Indiana, get the Larry and then carry.

If you do not have a Larry, carry a la 35-47-2-19, long gun, or don't carry until you get a Larry.

 

[actaeon277]

...
For everyone else about to call me for Dennying the thread, the man is asking about how to stay legal. He started off saying he was confused, and on those questions, we need to provide the best info we can.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The OP's question was answered in post #12, Kirk, though clarification, as per your post #33, is always welcome, and thank you for providing it! (Dr. Seuss notwithstanding)

As to your question in post #32, we're discussing peaceable journey because of alabasterjar's post #26. He raised a question that I asked him to clarify, and that got us onto that subject instead.

And OP, "Larry" is a term arrived at hereabouts to refer to your Indiana Licence to Carry.

For everyone else about to call me for Dennying the thread, the man is asking about how to stay legal. He started off saying he was confused, and on those questions, we need to provide the best info we can.

Blessings,
Bill

Because my formative years were shaped by Three Stooges reruns and Looney Tunes cartoons, I can say that is likely a Foghorn Leghorn reference, in Kirk's 'Joe-ja' and 'I say, I say...' comment above.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Because my formative years were shaped by Three Stooges reruns and Looney Tunes cartoons, I can say that is likely a Foghorn Leghorn reference, in Kirk's 'Joe-ja' and 'I say, I say...' comment above.

It was the rhyming I referenced, but I can see your point as well. More likely, though, given that it's Kirk, he's got on his jacket with the elbow patches and is rocking on his heels.

 

[cosermann]

Just get the Utah non-resident to go with your Indiana license...that's what I did.

Yeah. OP, I wonder if there's any way to "convert" your UT license now that you've moved from the state. Maybe you can renew it as a non-res. Not sure what the process is (if there is one).

UT non-res permits make nice companions to the Indiana License to Carry Handgun (LTCH).

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It was the rhyming I referenced, but I can see your point as well. More likely, though, given that it's Kirk, he's got on his jacket with the elbow patches and is rocking on his heels.

Very likely...very likely.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Very likely...very likely.

Allegedly!