Inconvenient Truth for Gore as Arctic Ice Claims Don't Add Up

[Roadie]

FOXNews.com - Inconvenient Truth for Gore as Arctic Ice Claims Don't Add Up

The former vice president said new research showed that the Arctic could be completely ice-free in five years, but the scientist his estimate was based on denies the timeline.


There are many kinds of truth. Al Gore was hit by an inconvenient one yesterday.
The former vice president, who became an unlikely figurehead for the green movement after narrating the Oscar-winning documentary "An Inconvenient Truth," became entangled in a new climate change row.
Gore, speaking at the Copenhagen climate change summit, stated the latest research showed that the Arctic could be completely ice-free in five years.
In his speech, Gore told the conference: "These figures are fresh. Some of the models suggest to Dr. [Wieslav] Maslowski that there is a 75 percent chance that the entire north polar ice cap, during the summer months, could be completely ice-free within five to seven years."
However, the climatologist whose work Gore was relying upon dropped the former vice president in the water with an icy blast.
"It's unclear to me how this figure was arrived at," Dr. Maslowski said. "I would never try to estimate likelihood at anything as exact as this."
Gore's office later admitted that the 75 percent figure was one used by Dr. Maslowski as a "ballpark figure" several years ago in a conversation with Gore.
The embarrassing error cast another shadow over the conference after the controversy over the hacked e-mails from the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit, which appeared to suggest that scientists had manipulated data to strengthen their argument that human activities were causing global warming.
Continue reading at The Times of London

 

[BloodEclipse]

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

Is anyone seriously still in doubt that the ice caps are melting?

THE ICE CAPS ARE MELTING and we're not doing a single thing to stop it... five years, ten years, twenty years... we're seriously screwing up here, and to the extent that something can be done without adversely effecting business or ceding national sovereignty, shouldn't we at least try to stave off entropy?

As a not-quite-fitting parallel (water:oil), I'm reminded of this quote from one of my favorite movies:

"You want to know what they're thinking? What are they thinking? They're thinking that it's running out, it's running out and ninety percent of whats left is in the Middle East. Look at the progression: Versailles; Suez; 1973; Gulf War 1; Gulf War 2. This is a fight to the death. So what are they thinking? 'Great!' They're thinking 'keep playing, keep buying yourself new toys, keep spending $50,000 a night on your hotel room, but don't invest in your infrastructure... don't build a real economy.' So that when you finally wake up, they will have sucked you dry, and you will have squandered the greatest natural resource in history... " - Matt Damon, 'Syriana'

 

[BloodEclipse]

Is anyone seriously still in doubt that the ice caps are melting?

THE ICE CAPS ARE MELTING and we're not doing a single thing to stop it... five years, ten years, twenty years... we're seriously screwing up here, and to the extent that something can be done without adversely effecting business or ceding national sovereignty, shouldn't we at least try to stave off entropy?

As a not-quite-fitting parallel (water:oil), I'm reminded of this quote from one of my favorite movies:

"You want to know what they're thinking? What are they thinking? They're thinking that it's running out, it's running out and ninety percent of whats left is in the Middle East. Look at the progression: Versailles; Suez; 1973; Gulf War 1; Gulf War 2. This is a fight to the death. So what are they thinking? 'Great!' They're thinking 'keep playing, keep buying yourself new toys, keep spending $50,000 a night on your hotel room, but don't invest in your infastructure... don't build a real economy.' So that when you finally wake up, they will have sucked you dry, and you will have squandered the greatest natural resource in history... " - Matt Damon, 'Syriana'

So what if they melt? Longer growing seasons. Able to produce more food and feed more people.
As the ice has retreated we are finding Viking settlements in Greenland that have been buried under the ice. Seems at one time it wasn't buried huh?
DOOM and GLOOM and THE SKY IS FALLING is based on JUNK SCIENCE.
Man doesn't have enough data to determine what the earth is going to to. The SUN plays the largest part on our climate.
I'm not going to be scared into giving my money away to people who are all too eager to sell me some snake oil.

 

[RelicHound]

So what if they melt? Longer growing seasons. Able to produce more food and feed more people.
As the ice has retreated we are finding Viking settlements in Greenland that have been buried under the ice. Seems at one time it wasn't buried huh?
DOOM and GLOOM and THE SKY IS FALLING is based on JUNK SCIENCE.
Man doesn't have enough data to determine what the earth is going to to. The SUN plays the largest part on our climate.
I'm not going to be scared into giving my money away to people who are all too eager to sell me some snake oil.

This

 

[antsi]

I'm not going to be scared into giving my money away to people who are all too eager to sell me some snake oil.

Haven't you heard? It is an established, unanimous, incontrovertible scientific fact that climate change is caused by people, that it will destroy the world, and that only by handing over unprecedented powers to the government can the world be saved. This fact is dutifully agreed to by every single scientist in the world. Anyone who questions this is a denier and a heretic. Welcome to the new science, where rather than hypotheses we have eternal unquestionable facts, rather than critical inquiry we have faithful orthodoxy.

Sheesh. It's the new religion for athiests.

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

So what if they melt? Longer growing seasons. Able to produce more food and feed more people.
As the ice has retreated we are finding Viking settlements in Greenland that have been buried under the ice. Seems at one time it wasn't buried huh?
DOOM and GLOOM and THE SKY IS FALLING is based on JUNK SCIENCE.
Man doesn't have enough data to determine what the earth is going to to. The SUN plays the largest part on our climate.
I'm not going to be scared into giving my money away to people who are all too eager to sell me some snake oil.

Nor am I willing to drink the Kool-Aid that we're all doomed immediately. But entropy, the breakdown of order within systems, is ever-present, and is one of the key indicators of the passage of time itself. Entropy is a fact, even if the levels of carbon dioxide are made-up, even if carbon dioxide itself is irrelevant to the climate change of this planet, even if mankind isn't contributing to it in the least... breakdown within systems is ever-present. Squandering our limited resources is a bad idea regardless of whether we're entering another ice age or another era of drought. Even judicious use of resources will only take us so far. At some point, they will run out. I think maybe we should put some effort into wisely planning how to best use them, how to stave off entropy for as long as we're able.

 

[dhnorris]

Maybe my grandkids can homestead in Antarctica they've already discovered more oil and gas up north with the retreating ice cover. As someone that works outside year round I'm a big fan of global warming. I also don't think that mankind has jack#@$% to do with it.

 

[jclark]

Al Gore also says there's a such thing as ManBearPig.

I'm sure the pollution we put on this Earth can't be good, but melting all the ice? I call B.S.

 

[Feign]

So what if they melt? Longer growing seasons. Able to produce more food and feed more people.
As the ice has retreated we are finding Viking settlements in Greenland that have been buried under the ice. Seems at one time it wasn't buried huh?
DOOM and GLOOM and THE SKY IS FALLING is based on JUNK SCIENCE.
Man doesn't have enough data to determine what the earth is going to to. The SUN plays the largest part on our climate.
I'm not going to be scared into giving my money away to people who are all too eager to sell me some snake oil.

Booyah! These people need to wad that image up, then stick it in their pipe and smoke it.

 

[Phil502]

I sure am glad the glacier melted over the midwest. Cavemen made really big fires.

 

[indykid]

evansvillethompsongunner, we along with billions of people on this earth assign you to lead the expedition to the sun in order to lower it's temperature. That blasted bright object in the daytime sky is causing this planet to heat up, and along with the next planet out, Mars, is melting the ice caps of both worlds.

Blot out the sun, paint it black, black as night, black as coal, we need to see the sun, blotted out from the sky.

And yes, there used to be an ice flow over much of Indiana that was reported to be about a mile thick. Not here now is it? Yup, our burning of "dead dinosaurs" caused that too.

 

[bigus_D]

The fact is that the earth is getting warmer. NO DOUBT IN ANY EDUCATED MIND IN THE WORLD. The suggestion that this change is going to help people (because they work outside and it will be more comfortable, or whatever) is as lame as the claims that warming isn't happening (because this winter was so cold, or whatever). Millions of people will be completed F'd as temperatures rise (THERE IS NO DOUBT).

The first question is weather (ha) or not we are contributing to the warming. No matter the answer to that question, the next question should be can/should we be doing something to change the current trend.

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil is (IMHO) the position of the extreme right on this issue. I could care less if science can prove that humans are the main cause of the warming, the fact is that it IS happening... it is wrong of US to do nothing leaving our children with a world in worse shape than when we were born.

p.s. Al Gore is a riding the green wave and padding his pockets with every opportunity. My statements above are in no way an endorcement for his actions/positions/etc.

 

[dburkhead]

Nor am I willing to drink the Kool-Aid that we're all doomed immediately. But entropy, the breakdown of order within systems, is ever-present, and is one of the key indicators of the passage of time itself. Entropy is a fact, even if the levels of carbon dioxide are made-up, even if carbon dioxide itself is irrelevant to the climate change of this planet, even if mankind isn't contributing to it in the least... breakdown within systems is ever-present. Squandering our limited resources is a bad idea regardless of whether we're entering another ice age or another era of drought. Even judicious use of resources will only take us so far. At some point, they will run out. I think maybe we should put some effort into wisely planning how to best use them, how to stave off entropy for as long as we're able.

You're badly misusing the concept of entropy here (please note, my degree is in physics and I've taken the statistical and thermal physics course at three different levels).

The simple fact that we have the sun--a major heat source--at the center of the solar system, and interstellar space--the ultimate heat sink--outside it covers the "entropy always increases" issue.

You might want to consider that the "the sky is falling" greens and AGW alarmists just about without fail reject the major means of dealing with the problem.

With sufficient energy, all material resources become 100% recyclable. The catch is producing sufficient energy cheaply enough. So where are the folk on the AGW side promoting the following:

Nuclear. (Despite the bleating of neo-Luddite sheep, this is the cleanest energy we have today; far cleaner, even in terms of radiation and radioactive waste, than coal.)

Space Solar Power. The "long pole in the tent" here is cheap access to space. There are no insurmountable technical barriers to reducing the cost of access to space by two orders of magnitude (at least) and with that building solar collectors in space either to use in situ (with space resources as feedstock) or to beam power to the earth via microwaves becomes economically viable. Again, utterly clean energy.

Ocean Thermal Power. The oceans are the biggest collector of solar power on the planet. Using the temperature difference between the surface and the depths as a source of power would allow us to tap into that. And the biggest "pollutants" produced are fish (creating artificial upwellings bringing nutrient rich bottom waters to the sun-lit surface feeding plankton growth which attract and support larger populations of fish) and fresh, desalinated, water (using the low-pressure water cycle for the system).

The issues are mostly political, not technical. And the biggest political issue is the radical "greens" (including the AGW alarmists) throwing roadblocks into the way of development.

 

[printcraft]

OMGSHTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The earth's temp has raised 1/10 of a degree.

Estimates have it that the temp might raise as much as 1 or 2 degrees over the next 200 years!!!!!!!!

EDIT: (#2) YOU SEE, my own statement (above) is probably FALSE due to the fact the the data has been fugged to show warming and
and evidence of cooling has been removed from that same data.

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

NEW FLASH: IS WAS A LOT WARMER IN THE PAST. (oh is was a lot COLDER TOO)

People have no idea about the grand scale of time.
Our entire existence is nothing more than a hiccup on the timeline of the earth.
Ask the people of Pompeii is they feel like a threat to the planet.

Only man is so arrogant that he thinks he is the center of the universe.

Again, Give me a break.


EDIT:

My theory of global warming.... It's that big burning thing in the sky, kind of like the elephant in the room no one cares about.

NOTE: the earth is not that close to the sun. Just an FYI.

 

[dburkhead]

The fact is that the earth is getting warmer. NO DOUBT IN ANY EDUCATED MIND IN THE WORLD. The suggestion that this change is going to help people (because they work outside and it will be more comfortable, or whatever) is as lame as the claims that warming isn't happening (because this winter was so cold, or whatever). Millions of people will be completed F'd as temperatures rise (THERE IS NO DOUBT).

If this were so clear and so unambiguous people like the Hadley group wouldn't have needed to cherry-pick and falsify their data.

They've been caught lying about it. That's what those leaked emails amount to. And when it comes time to audit the data, we find that the original data has been discarded. Come again? A supposed scientific lab discarding the original data? I can still lay my hands on the data for the first project the place where I work ever did. And while there have been three or four projects where we did work for clients where we didn't retain data (confidentiality) all of the data was turned over to the client who does. The excuses for discarding the data simply do not work for anyone who knows how science actually works.

You might want to look for computer models that are able to "predict" the past (say, set them with 1900 as the starting conditions and have them produce the results of the 20th century), but don't hold your breath while looking because they don't exist.

Then there is the simple fact that the "predictions" by these computer models don't predict higher temperatures than we have had in recorded history (such as the Medieval Warm Period).

The first question is weather (ha) or not we are contributing to the warming. No matter the answer to that question, the next question should be can/should we be doing something to change the current trend.

Since we've seen temperatures as high, or higher, than those predicted by AGW models, the answer should be a no-brainer.

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil is (IMHO) the position of the extreme right on this issue. I could care less if science can prove that humans are the main cause of the warming, the fact is that it IS happening... it is wrong of US to do nothing leaving our children with a world in worse shape than when we were born.

"The Sky is falling" is (IMNSHO) the position of the "moderate" to extreme left on the issue.

And what's with this assumption that the world will end up on worse shape? Historically warmer periods have been lusher and greener than we have currently.

Here's the thing, if humans are not the main cause then what makes you think that we can have any significant effect? It's only the hubris of the radical greens that takes that as an article of faith.

IMO leaving our grandchidren in peonage to the radical greens is leaving the world "in worse shape."

p.s. Al Gore is a riding the green wave and padding his pockets with every opportunity. My statements above are in no way an endorcement for his actions/positions/etc.

He's not riding the green wave. He's setting off depth charges to help cause it, force feeding to the public.

 

[BloodEclipse]

The fact is that the earth is getting warmer. NO DOUBT IN ANY EDUCATED MIND IN THE WORLD. The suggestion that this change is going to help people (because they work outside and it will be more comfortable, or whatever) is as lame as the claims that warming isn't happening (because this winter was so cold, or whatever). Millions of people will be completed F'd as temperatures rise (THERE IS NO DOUBT).

The first question is weather (ha) or not we are contributing to the warming. No matter the answer to that question, the next question should be can/should we be doing something to change the current trend.

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil is (IMHO) the position of the extreme right on this issue. I could care less if science can prove that humans are the main cause of the warming, the fact is that it IS happening... it is wrong of US to do nothing leaving our children with a world in worse shape than when we were born.

p.s. Al Gore is a riding the green wave and padding his pockets with every opportunity. My statements above are in no way an endorcement for his actions/positions/etc.

The fact is most of the scientists who are studying the climate and warning of warming are the same group that in the 70's warned of global freezing and new ice age. They always scream calamity so they can keep getting funds to make $#!t up.

Show me real and not made up data that shows the earth is in some out of control warming.

Look at the chart and you will notice that even meteors, volcanoes, earth quakes, fires and other calamities have not succeeded in destroying the Earth. How can man be so vain as to think we amount for any change whatsoever. She has taken punch after punch but has always sustained life.
So count me amongst the UNEDUCATED.
You cannot name call me into submission.

 

[Phil502]

OMGSHTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



EDIT:

My theory of global warming.... It's that big burning thing in the sky, kind of like the elephant in the room no one cares about.

NOTE: the earth is not that close to the sun. Just an FYI.

*Snap* that right there's that big yellow thing in the sky!
Is that a picture of the sun or Al Gore belching up the 4 burrito lunch he had?

 

[Roadie]

The fact is that the earth is getting warmer. NO DOUBT IN ANY EDUCATED MIND IN THE WORLD. The suggestion that this change is going to help people (because they work outside and it will be more comfortable, or whatever) is as lame as the claims that warming isn't happening (because this winter was so cold, or whatever). Millions of people will be completed F'd as temperatures rise (THERE IS NO DOUBT).

The first question is weather (ha) or not we are contributing to the warming. No matter the answer to that question, the next question should be can/should we be doing something to change the current trend.

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil is (IMHO) the position of the extreme right on this issue. I could care less if science can prove that humans are the main cause of the warming, the fact is that it IS happening... it is wrong of US to do nothing leaving our children with a world in worse shape than when we were born.

p.s. Al Gore is a riding the green wave and padding his pockets with every opportunity. My statements above are in no way an endorcement for his actions/positions/etc.

Did you look at the chart BloodEclipse posted by chance?

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

You're badly misusing the concept of entropy here (please note, my degree is in physics and I've taken the statistical and thermal physics course at three different levels).

The simple fact that we have the sun--a major heat source--at the center of the solar system, and interstellar space--the ultimate heat sink--outside it covers the "entropy always increases" issue.

You might want to consider that the "the sky is falling" greens and AGW alarmists just about without fail reject the major means of dealing with the problem.

With sufficient energy, all material resources become 100% recyclable. The catch is producing sufficient energy cheaply enough. So where are the folk on the AGW side promoting the following:

Nuclear. (Despite the bleating of neo-Luddite sheep, this is the cleanest energy we have today; far cleaner, even in terms of radiation and radioactive waste, than coal.)

Space Solar Power. The "long pole in the tent" here is cheap access to space. There are no insurmountable technical barriers to reducing the cost of access to space by two orders of magnitude (at least) and with that building solar collectors in space either to use in situ (with space resources as feedstock) or to beam power to the earth via microwaves becomes economically viable. Again, utterly clean energy.

Ocean Thermal Power. The oceans are the biggest collector of solar power on the planet. Using the temperature difference between the surface and the depths as a source of power would allow us to tap into that. And the biggest "pollutants" produced are fish (creating artificial upwellings bringing nutrient rich bottom waters to the sun-lit surface feeding plankton growth which attract and support larger populations of fish) and fresh, desalinated, water (using the low-pressure water cycle for the system).

The issues are mostly political, not technical. And the biggest political issue is the radical "greens" (including the AGW alarmists) throwing roadblocks into the way of development.

While these are all good methods of energy production, I don't see how I'm "badly misusing the concept of entropy." Entropy, especially as it concerns thermodynamics, is readily apparent. Heat transfers from high heat to low heat, energy transfer always dissipates to some degree... heat is often produced as a side-product of energy production - nuclear reactions, for instance. Neutrons transferred, a chemical and physical process, produces a lot of thermal energy in the process. Inefficiencies are inherent in all forms of energy production, some far more than others. There will come a day when even too the Sun will self-extinguish, and even if homo sapiens manages to hold off that long, there will be little to be done after that occurs. And so it goes. Even with more technologies to gather more energy, an era of plentiful energy - or heat - cannot last forever.