Indoor Range & Accuracy: Discuss!

[rhino]

So we've now completed two indoor USPSA matches at Parabellum in Avon. One thing that I have noticed is that quite a few of us are missing a lot more than usual and the hits we do get are not as good when compared to performance I observe at our outdoor matches.

Anyone have any ideas why this is happening?

At first I was thinking it was because the targets are a little farther away than we usually see them in typical club matches. That may be part of it, but I no longer believe it's the primary culprit.

For instance, quite a few of my targets has two hits within an inch or inch and a half of each other, but they were not usually in the A zone, much less near the center. Had they been consistently in the same place, I'd think it was mostly a trigger control issue, but the location of the two hits was not consistent (other than not being where I thought I was shooting).

That leads me to believe that (for me at least), it's related to what I am seeing when I look at the sights. I think the lighting is a factor since it's very different than what we see when we're outside. Another data point is that during the low light shoot, my accuracy was much better and I was shooting faster splits. The difference was that I was using a light, which silhouetted by sights nicely, thus giving me a good sight picture.

Thoughts?

Ideas on how to compensate for the differences?

 

[Snizz1911]

They lighting was very different. I was all over, but mostly pushing shots high. All I can come up with is I could lightly see the fiber, and lined it up with the top of the notch. I don't know though, I deliberately slowed down a couple seconds the last run and had just as many mikes.

so I don't think it's going to fast and I don't think it's distance.

 

[rhino]

They lighting was very different. I was all over, but mostly pushing shots high. All I can come up with is I could lightly see the fiber, and lined it up with the top of the notch. I don't know though, I deliberately slowed down a couple seconds the last run and had just as many mikes.

so I don't think it's going to fast and I don't think it's distance.

Agreed ...

On the 2nd and 3rd stages, I was very deliberate about my grip, sight picture, trigger press, etc. My inclination at this point is that the biggest factor is the way we are seeing iron sights in that lighting conditions. This may be compounded by vision issues that individual shooters may have. I was wearing my bifocals and I couldn't see my front sight clearly the entire night. Next time I'll try my glasses with no prescription to see if it makes a difference.

I'm curious if the guys with red dots had any issues?

This is interesting to me because the lighting conditions are very much like you'd see in a parking garage or similar place. It's good to learn about these things in a controlled, very low-stakes environment.

 

[AllenM]

Yea when I finished last night I left not feeling to good about how I did. I know I missed a lot but apparently I wasn't the only one. I scored higher then I expected.
I do attribute many of the misses to the indoor lighting I slowed down after the first stage and concentrated on seeing my sights better and it helped some.

 

[rvb]

how many of you guys missing more than you do at an outdoor match are running FO? you can't use it like a red-dot indoors.

I used to shoot indoors quite a bit and I always shot slightly worse than out doors (esp when shooting groups), but never enough to account for that guy, oh... what's his name.... Mike!

that said, I never shot at that particular range, so every range is different.....

-rvb

 

[rhino]

Yea when I finished last night I left not feeling to good about how I did. I know I missed a lot but apparently I wasn't the only one. I scored higher then I expected.
I do attribute many of the misses to the indoor lighting I slowed down after the first stage and concentrated on seeing my sights better and it helped some.

I had 3-4 misses on the first stage, then one 2 and 3 I just treated it like marksmanship practice. I didn't have any more misses in terms of missing the whole target, but I definitely missed where I believed the gun was pointed. I had several targets with two D hits right next to each other.

how many of you guys missing more than you do at an outdoor match are running FO? you can't use it like a red-dot indoors.

I used to shoot indoors quite a bit and I always shot slightly worse than out doors (esp when shooting groups), but never enough to account for that guy, oh... what's his name.... Mike!

that said, I never shot at that particular range, so every range is different.....

-rvb

I was shooting a Glock 17 with night sights. The light was bright enough that couldn't really see the glow much, but it was also diffuse enough that I couldn't make out the outline of the top edge (where I like to look when I remember to look). I had no problems in this regard the week before in the dark, but I was using a TLR-1 mounted to the gun and I could see nice black outline rise and fall on each shot.

 

[Dog1]

I have always found that if I shoot indoors, that my accuracy is a tad off due to the inconsistent lighting. Shadows can muck with distance.

 

[sjstill]

We have a couple of worklights we can set up next match, as long as no one trips on the extension cords.

 

[rhino]

We have a couple of worklights we can set up next match, as long as no one trips on the extension cords.

That might eliminate what we're experiencing, so thank you!

Given that, I'm more interested in determining what exactly is happening and more importantly, how to accommodate it. We can't always choose the lighting conditions, whether it's for a match or something more serious!

 

[Leo]

Lighting is everything. Even slow paced bullseye shooting, using the same pistol, same target, same ammo, at the same distance requires different sight adjustments. I am sure that the shorter period of actual aiming time in an action match amplifies the error. In a well lit place you may feel you are seeing well, but it is still not as good as natural light, even on an overcast day. Enjoy whatever you have now, it only goes down hill as you age.

 

[rhino]

Lighting is everything. Even slow paced bullseye shooting, using the same pistol, same target, same ammo, at the same distance requires different sight adjustments. I am sure that the shorter period of actual aiming time in an action match amplifies the error. In a well lit place you may feel you are seeing well, but it is still not as good as natural light, even on an overcast day. Enjoy whatever you have now, it only goes down hill as you age.

Indeed!

 

[BillD]

I'm sure it depends on how well you see to begin with. I've noticed in recent years that driving at night is a lot harder for me due to detoriating eyesight. I had 5 or 6 mikes the first match. I had one last night. My problem was firing before I had a solid sight picture. With the older eyes, shooting indoors (the FO doesn't show up AT ALL) with the lighting issues, I had to tell myself to slow down. I continued to fire at the first match like I was outside, not letting my sights dictate, just shooting at the outside speed. I slowed way down on the first COF and then started speeding up gradually from there. It seemed to work, the mikes went down. I was waiting until I had a pretty solid sight picture. It takes longer if it's harder to see the front sight.
Doesn't matter how fast you shoot it if you have 4 mikes, unless you are Chad or Chris Stump. At those distances, in that light, it's deceivingly difficult, IMO.

I was concentrating really, really hard on my front sight, which I need to do for most of my shots in USPSA. I say leave the lighting as is and let me get into the habit of having to really see a sight picture. You know, instead of a fist in front of brown.

I could tell with fair accuracy the number of Mikes a shooter was going to have by the cadence, except for the open guys...

 

[rvb]

Lighting is everything. Even slow paced bullseye shooting, using the same pistol, same target, same ammo, at the same distance requires different sight adjustments

Missing one of our targets at 10 yds means the FS probably isn't even in the notch. It's not like an X becoming an 8or 9 because of some glare or shadows on the Sights...

I had 5 or 6 mikes the first match. I had one last night. My problem was firing before I had a solid sight picture. ... shooting indoors (the FO doesn't show up AT ALL) with the lighting issues, I had to tell myself to slow down. ... It seemed to work, the mikes went down. I was waiting until I had a pretty solid sight picture. It takes longer if it's harder to see the front sight.

 

[Litlratt]

We have a couple of worklights we can set up next match, as long as no one trips on the extension cords.

Good idea as this is a match and not a low light training session.
Competitors interested in learning in a controlled, very low-stakes environment could be given the option of turning the additional lights off.

 

[Rob377]

Missing one of our targets at 10 yds means the FS probably isn't even in the notch. It's not like an X becoming an 8or 9 because of some glare or shadows on the Sights...

As rhino pointed out at the match, The ironic thing is that all the targets were at 15 yards, which tends to be further than we shoot outdoors at the clubs with smaller bays.

 

[Birds Away]

There is a big difference in my shooting from outdoors to indoors. I always assumed it was my failing eyesight.

 

[mongo404]

Maybe??

 

[Rob377]

After the first run with the 1 mike, I think I figured it out. No mikes after that and I didn't have to slow down too much, so that was good.

Between the lower light levels and the relative distance, the effort required to shift focal planes from the front sight to the target was a little higher. On a few targets, I noticed myself getting a little lazy and just riding a front sight focus on the transition or staying target focused, and when I do that, it's just a transition to brown and NOT specifically to the alpha box. Result? A nicely grouped 2 charlie.

 

[rhino]

After the first run with the 1 mike, I think I figured it out. No mikes after that and I didn't have to slow down too much, so that was good.

Between the lower light levels and the relative distance, the effort required to shift focal planes from the front sight to the target was a little higher. On a few targets, I noticed myself getting a little lazy and just riding a front sight focus on the transition or staying target focused, and when I do that, it's just a transition to brown and NOT specifically to the alpha box. Result? A nicely grouped 2 charlie.

Hmmm . . . maybe that's what I was doing too (except in super slo-mo by comparison). Maybe I had a reasonable focus on my front sight, but I wasn't really superimposing that over the right place on the brown when I was pressing the trigger and didn't realize it.

This is thought-provoking.

And, ultimately what I (we) learn for this will be beneficial for multiple applications.



(and yes, you're still on my IGNORE list, yet I read your messages)

 

[Rob377]

Kinda defeats the purpose of an ignore list, no?