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Innovative Tactical Concetps-Richmond Indiana
- Thread starter Dave
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For the record I have been in touch with Brian@ITC and as of this time will be attending a pistol class in July as his guest. I will come back to this forum with a detailed AAR - my thoughts on the class, and how it compares to others I have taken.
I don't have nearly the amount of training as some members on this board. But I bet I have more training than 90% of the registered members here. I promised Brian I would show up with an open mind and I will do just that. I will also be brutally honest in my report. I'm not spending my weekend, gas money to Richmond, and 500 rounds of ammo with the intention to write a horrible review. That being said just because I'm able to get some training in I'm not going up there to write a glowing review. I'm going to find out for myself and this board what this training is all about and I will report my findings here. I hope to learn some things!
Mike
I don't have nearly the amount of training as some members on this board. But I bet I have more training than 90% of the registered members here. I promised Brian I would show up with an open mind and I will do just that. I will also be brutally honest in my report. I'm not spending my weekend, gas money to Richmond, and 500 rounds of ammo with the intention to write a horrible review. That being said just because I'm able to get some training in I'm not going up there to write a glowing review. I'm going to find out for myself and this board what this training is all about and I will report my findings here. I hope to learn some things!
Mike
I kind of see Brian's point. I attended a Karate school in Beach Grove that had much of the same thinking. We trained to fight when most schools trained how to compete in tourneys. Learning how to score points doesn't keep you safe on the street. We studied MANY katas from many styles but not once did we learn a structured response to any kind of attack.
The school did send several students to a tourney... once. I think 4 out of 5 were disqualified for illegal move &/or drawing blood. I think one student broke someone's nose.
And I love this quote: "If I use a rake as my tool to defend myself, do I need to seek a “certified” instructor in rake-fu?".
The school did send several students to a tourney... once. I think 4 out of 5 were disqualified for illegal move &/or drawing blood. I think one student broke someone's nose.
And I love this quote: "If I use a rake as my tool to defend myself, do I need to seek a “certified” instructor in rake-fu?".
When our training group meets, we all get together to train on something that we all need to work on, and then whoever has been to a school recently will share the “highlights” with us and what they thought was important. It is usually about 5-6 things at most. It may be a drill that they liked, or whatever. By no means are we teaching an entire course that someone went to. When budgets are tight, LE will send someone to a school to bring something back instead of sending everyone and they will work on the highlights.
Now, regarding my statement of paying the big bucks… I meant no disrespect to any instructor. All I am saying is that personally I have not seen anything brought back to the group that I felt sparked enough interest to go and spend the time and money to learn “their twist” on things. Most everything that I have seen brought back to the training group has been two handed shooting. As I believe that I have stated at some point in my previous posts, for the most part I don’t agree with how the gun is brought into the fight in typical firearms training. And, from the information that has been brought back to the group, there hasn’t been anything significantly “different” about how to implement the gun into the fight. This is my viewpoint of 22 years of fighting experience. Most training is guncentric when it should be FIGHT focused. So, take from that what you will. I think that all firearms training is good training for teaching basics. But a lot of the so called “advanced” stuff is not realistic against someone who has you at gun or knife point at the distances most confrontations take place.
If you you want to visit a big school, then do it! I’m sure that you will it will not be a waste of money for you. At least you are getting some sort of training and it is good training. By no means should you be teaching the entire course you took unless you are a certified instructor of the school you went to. But let's be honest, most people will take back at least one thing they learned and teach it.
I read back through my posts, and I do not believe that I quoted anyone. And as far as “verbatim”, how many things can be said without “quoting” someone else? How many times each day do you quote someone else’s words without knowing it? I am the first person to give credit where credit is due IF I know someone else said it and they have “coined” the phrase. But again, if I haven’t trained with them, what are the chances of quoting them?
For those of you who say “Nay” to our training, that is fine, that is your choice. However, we are looking for those people who know there is something more to training with a firearm than what is being taught by most people in the “firearms” industry. There are plenty of people who know there is something missing in their training. We get emails, phone calls, and talk to people at gun shows all the time and they say something like, “This is what I have been looking for….” What it doesn’t mean is that the training they have had is crap. And I hope that I have never implied that it is. I just don’t think that a lot of the training is realistic for self-defense purposes. Our goal is simply to get people to think outside the box with no limitations and focus on the FIGHT and not the use of the gun.
___________________
Brian K. LaMaster - Innovative Tactical Concepts
I want to thank Brian LaMaster and the rest of the ITC instructors for the excellent seminar this last weekend. The instructors were professional, friendly and knowledgeable about the concepts they were presenting. The training was more practical than anything I have seen in my ten years as a police officer. The proof is when you realize that you cannot draw your firearm and safely fire in the short amount time you have before the bad guy is all over you. I took the time to read the previous posts and I can see that many people are deeply attached to their egos. I know from experience that you cannot learn anything until you let go of your ego. I will not debate the validity of this training with anyone who is unwilling to put their own body out there and experience it themselves. I can only suggest that if you are offered this training again, you should consider swallowing your pride. You may just learn something. Again, thank you for the excellent training. Looking forward to my next opportunity to train with you.
After looking at the ITC video, I can agree on having something to throw, but I don't think it will be my keys! It's kind of hard to get away, in my car at least, when the BG has my keys in his face.
I would rather keep my keys in my hand and if I had to strike use the keys as a cutting tool across the eyes.
A Master Sergeant with the Army Special forces teaches to carry a magazine, roll it up and it can be a very effective striking tool from the end.
I would rather keep my keys in my hand and if I had to strike use the keys as a cutting tool across the eyes.
A Master Sergeant with the Army Special forces teaches to carry a magazine, roll it up and it can be a very effective striking tool from the end.
Interesting first post. Good to have you here but it kind of seems like someone might have told you... "hey go on that INGO board and write a good review". Maybe not but most people usually post a bit or say high in the welcome forum. You have come here and wrote a glowing review. Nothing else so far.
Anyway I would like to know how you came to this class. Did you find it online? Hear about it in SWAT? Are you friends with the owner? What police force do you work for?
Anyway I would like to know how you came to this class. Did you find it online? Hear about it in SWAT? Are you friends with the owner? What police force do you work for?
This is a comment made by another student on another forum.
Ohioans For Concealed Carry :: View topic - ITC Advanced Pistol Fighting
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Brian K. LaMaster - Innovative Tactical Concepts
Ohioans For Concealed Carry :: View topic - ITC Advanced Pistol Fighting
____________________
Brian K. LaMaster - Innovative Tactical Concepts
Brian@ITC, I'm not trying to blow you any Flak here, so please don't take it as such.
Do you have any students in Indiana who are training Junkies? Students that have been to ANY of the big schools? If so could you please point me to AARs written by them?
Hearing how great a class is from someone who's only taken NRA basic Pistol, Or LEO/US Army basic training doesn't carry a lot of weight with me. You very well might have the best school in country, but hearing AARs from people who don't have anything to compare against doesn't assist me in my decision making process.
Do you have any students in Indiana who are training Junkies? Students that have been to ANY of the big schools? If so could you please point me to AARs written by them?
Hearing how great a class is from someone who's only taken NRA basic Pistol, Or LEO/US Army basic training doesn't carry a lot of weight with me. You very well might have the best school in country, but hearing AARs from people who don't have anything to compare against doesn't assist me in my decision making process.
Brian, I watched your video, the one with the shady character doing the pee-pee dance. First of all, my situational awareness would have "gone off" like the proverbial Spidey Sense and I would have proceeded to put some space between the bad guy and myself.
For some reason I get a weird feeling about you, must be my Spidey Sense going off again.
For some reason I get a weird feeling about you, must be my Spidey Sense going off again.
Okay... someone on here did ask if anyone had first hand experience and then we just have a class and someone posts here, and then comes under fire for doing so. What is it that you people REALLY want here?
If someone only post one time or two times, does that make the training less valuable or their opinion less valuable? And, quite honestly, I think that JNR spoke the truth about some things not regarding our training. In any discussion forum, an introduction is not required. Furthermore, we do encourage people to spread the word if they like our training. We also encourage people to be honest about their experience whatever it may have been. If someone has a negative experience, we are sure they will spread the word without our asking because that is the nature of business. People will tell ten people of their bad experience, but only one about their good experience.
In addition, we encourage people to join discussion forums because there is some valuable information and training opportunities. However, we do caution people about getting caught up in debates because sometimes they are a waste of time and there are keyboard commandos.
Not everyone who has trained with us will get online and discuss things with the public. They realize what can happen on discussion forums, and the fact that a lot of people do not actually train often, or at all. They also realize the fact that not everyone is going to want to go and train with us regardless of how much positive feedback is given. We tell people that training is more important than spending time online arguing with people who are set in their ways, or don’t train at all, but rather are keyboard commandos.
As I said, we encourage people to share their experience and be honest about it no matter whose toes they may step on… ours or yours. Maybe the people who have taken our Advanced Pistol Fighting course realize the importance of training and choose training on their own over spending time on the keyboard. We have not had one student say to us that our training did not change the way they think about things now. JNR is one of those people.
I don’t know any business that does not appreciate word of mouth. And, as far as training junkies in Indiana, yes, but none of which want to get caught up in the bull of the online game. I cannot force anyone to spend their time trying to “convince” people to train with us. In fact, the only reason I am on here is to reach those few people who WANT to learn more than what is being offered by most people. And, we are a local training source that offers quality training at an affordable price.
It is always funny that I face the same thing on all of the forums from the people who have had firearms training or don’t train at all. I will respond when I have time to respond. I do not sit here every day playing on the computer in cyber world because I am normally training or doing something productive. The truth of the matter is that even if Fenway does come back and provide a positive AAR, my prediction is that a lot of you still will not come and train. And, then, your posts mean nothing when it comes down to it but you will not make things right by stating the fact that you won’t come and train because of whatever excuse you will make.
For those of you who have not experienced our training, it is really simple. There is a 100% money back guarantee so all you “risk” is travel expenses. I am sure that you will learn something worthwhile and well worth more than travel expenses. So, it really boils down to this… either you will continue to hide behind the keyboard and bash those who “challenge” your firearms training, or you are going to put your money where your mouth is and “risk” coming and training and learning something that may be some of the best training out there. Regardless of who takes the training, everyone is going to have a different opinion about it. So far, all we have gotten back is positive feedback from those who have trained with us. So, until you get several people providing you feedback or you experience it yourself, then you really don’t have any means of judging the training that is different from most other “firearms” training.
My question to those who have had firearms training, how many of you have trained in true reality based training? Another thing… just because you have visited several of the larger name schools doesn’t really mean squat. Anyone can go and take training and then think they have a certain skill level simply because they have taken the class. A lot of people may take classes simply for bragging rights. And, just because you have had the training and haven’t trained much since, it doesn’t mean that you still have that skill set! It is no different than someone who gets a black belt and then stops training. They may still hold the rank of black belt, but their skills are not at that level.
Anytime anyone goes against the grain of what is taught, they face the same thing that I am facing here. I really don’t think the concept of reality based training is all that difficult to comprehend. Like I said, we aren’t the only people doing it. From some of the feedback that I have gotten from people who have trained with other reality based trainers and who were instructors of some of the other “reality” based trainers, do I think that we are doing something as good or better, yes, I do.
And, what could someone who hasn’t attended a big name school possibly have to offer you—right? Just because people choose not to attend those schools, does not mean anything. I went through the listing of the training resumes and I only saw one or two people who have had reality based training. True reality based training is like comparing apples to oranges. And for most of you who have posted, I would say that a large portion of you are the apple bunch. And just because someone (Whitey) who took our class has decided not to train with any big names because they did not interest him, doesn’t mean his opinion is any less valuable than those who have. When I read a review by someone who has been to a lot of big name schools, I read it for what it is worth, an opinion, and try to see what the course was about.
We see the same thing that I am dealing with here all the time in the martial arts community. People who think they are studying a combat art are not, and then when they are exposed to a real combat art, their eyes are opened. Now, it is still up to them to make the decision to continue down the path they are on, or do they want the real thing?
Bigcraig, I mean you no disrespect sir, but how long have you been training? Dude, it was a drill to get you to realize that you cannot draw and shoot if there is no “threat”. It is also a drill to get you to see that you cannot REACT to someone with a knife within 10 feet and draw your gun and shoot the attacker. I was “overacting” for a reason. And that reason was to try and get you to react before you saw a weapon and shoot me. It was a drill… nothing more, nothing less. So, since you brought it up, were you able to successfully draw and shoot from concealment? Did your Spidey reflexes react that quickly? My guess is not. Come and take the training and you will see FIRST HAND that you cannot draw your gun in time and shoot against an attacker who has a knife and makes the first move. And, you will not always see the weapon before it is in motion.
Our recent course had 10 people in it 9 of which have decided not to get caught up in the bs on this forum. I understand their viewpoint and that the chances are a lot of you are going to keep doing what you are doing. We had 3 LEO’s in the class, one of which was on a SWAT Team in a pretty good size town in north central Indiana. At this point, he has chosen not to waste his time on the forums but has decided to take some of the material back and try to implement it into their training. Something which is more productive than trying to convince people whose minds are likely not to be changed regardless of what is said. Bottom line…The training speaks for itself!!!
Now, as people take our course regardless of the abuse on this forum, you will hear good things about us and you will read some good things about us. Again, not everyone is going to get sucked in to the online debates about training. I invited some of you via PM as my guest to come and train and you declined to do so and some of which never did reply, which tells me, and all of us, that you are hiding behind the keyboard. But none of you had the decency to say that in public where you continue to run your mouths without putting yourself in the training as JNR said. So, unless you are willing to come and train, then do us all a favor and give it a rest. Again, there is a 100% MBG. We shall see who the people with egos are… shall we not?
Hopefully for those of you who have been wise enough to stay out of this thread, you can see through these people who won’t even come and train FOR FREE. Everyone wants to bash something they don’t understand, but are unwilling to step up and experience good quality training for the sake of continuing to hide behind the keyboard.
One more thing, this is NOT a feel good course. Most people walk away with a rude awakening of the reality of a fight and the gun is not the solution to the problem. If you want a "feel good" course, DO NOT COME HERE TO TRAIN!!! If you want a dose of reality, then we are going to give you just that and nothing less.
____________________
Brian K. LaMaster - President, Innovative Tactical Concepts
Instructor - Counter Force International
If someone only post one time or two times, does that make the training less valuable or their opinion less valuable? And, quite honestly, I think that JNR spoke the truth about some things not regarding our training. In any discussion forum, an introduction is not required. Furthermore, we do encourage people to spread the word if they like our training. We also encourage people to be honest about their experience whatever it may have been. If someone has a negative experience, we are sure they will spread the word without our asking because that is the nature of business. People will tell ten people of their bad experience, but only one about their good experience.
In addition, we encourage people to join discussion forums because there is some valuable information and training opportunities. However, we do caution people about getting caught up in debates because sometimes they are a waste of time and there are keyboard commandos.
Not everyone who has trained with us will get online and discuss things with the public. They realize what can happen on discussion forums, and the fact that a lot of people do not actually train often, or at all. They also realize the fact that not everyone is going to want to go and train with us regardless of how much positive feedback is given. We tell people that training is more important than spending time online arguing with people who are set in their ways, or don’t train at all, but rather are keyboard commandos.
As I said, we encourage people to share their experience and be honest about it no matter whose toes they may step on… ours or yours. Maybe the people who have taken our Advanced Pistol Fighting course realize the importance of training and choose training on their own over spending time on the keyboard. We have not had one student say to us that our training did not change the way they think about things now. JNR is one of those people.
I don’t know any business that does not appreciate word of mouth. And, as far as training junkies in Indiana, yes, but none of which want to get caught up in the bull of the online game. I cannot force anyone to spend their time trying to “convince” people to train with us. In fact, the only reason I am on here is to reach those few people who WANT to learn more than what is being offered by most people. And, we are a local training source that offers quality training at an affordable price.
It is always funny that I face the same thing on all of the forums from the people who have had firearms training or don’t train at all. I will respond when I have time to respond. I do not sit here every day playing on the computer in cyber world because I am normally training or doing something productive. The truth of the matter is that even if Fenway does come back and provide a positive AAR, my prediction is that a lot of you still will not come and train. And, then, your posts mean nothing when it comes down to it but you will not make things right by stating the fact that you won’t come and train because of whatever excuse you will make.
For those of you who have not experienced our training, it is really simple. There is a 100% money back guarantee so all you “risk” is travel expenses. I am sure that you will learn something worthwhile and well worth more than travel expenses. So, it really boils down to this… either you will continue to hide behind the keyboard and bash those who “challenge” your firearms training, or you are going to put your money where your mouth is and “risk” coming and training and learning something that may be some of the best training out there. Regardless of who takes the training, everyone is going to have a different opinion about it. So far, all we have gotten back is positive feedback from those who have trained with us. So, until you get several people providing you feedback or you experience it yourself, then you really don’t have any means of judging the training that is different from most other “firearms” training.
My question to those who have had firearms training, how many of you have trained in true reality based training? Another thing… just because you have visited several of the larger name schools doesn’t really mean squat. Anyone can go and take training and then think they have a certain skill level simply because they have taken the class. A lot of people may take classes simply for bragging rights. And, just because you have had the training and haven’t trained much since, it doesn’t mean that you still have that skill set! It is no different than someone who gets a black belt and then stops training. They may still hold the rank of black belt, but their skills are not at that level.
Anytime anyone goes against the grain of what is taught, they face the same thing that I am facing here. I really don’t think the concept of reality based training is all that difficult to comprehend. Like I said, we aren’t the only people doing it. From some of the feedback that I have gotten from people who have trained with other reality based trainers and who were instructors of some of the other “reality” based trainers, do I think that we are doing something as good or better, yes, I do.
And, what could someone who hasn’t attended a big name school possibly have to offer you—right? Just because people choose not to attend those schools, does not mean anything. I went through the listing of the training resumes and I only saw one or two people who have had reality based training. True reality based training is like comparing apples to oranges. And for most of you who have posted, I would say that a large portion of you are the apple bunch. And just because someone (Whitey) who took our class has decided not to train with any big names because they did not interest him, doesn’t mean his opinion is any less valuable than those who have. When I read a review by someone who has been to a lot of big name schools, I read it for what it is worth, an opinion, and try to see what the course was about.
We see the same thing that I am dealing with here all the time in the martial arts community. People who think they are studying a combat art are not, and then when they are exposed to a real combat art, their eyes are opened. Now, it is still up to them to make the decision to continue down the path they are on, or do they want the real thing?
Bigcraig, I mean you no disrespect sir, but how long have you been training? Dude, it was a drill to get you to realize that you cannot draw and shoot if there is no “threat”. It is also a drill to get you to see that you cannot REACT to someone with a knife within 10 feet and draw your gun and shoot the attacker. I was “overacting” for a reason. And that reason was to try and get you to react before you saw a weapon and shoot me. It was a drill… nothing more, nothing less. So, since you brought it up, were you able to successfully draw and shoot from concealment? Did your Spidey reflexes react that quickly? My guess is not. Come and take the training and you will see FIRST HAND that you cannot draw your gun in time and shoot against an attacker who has a knife and makes the first move. And, you will not always see the weapon before it is in motion.
Our recent course had 10 people in it 9 of which have decided not to get caught up in the bs on this forum. I understand their viewpoint and that the chances are a lot of you are going to keep doing what you are doing. We had 3 LEO’s in the class, one of which was on a SWAT Team in a pretty good size town in north central Indiana. At this point, he has chosen not to waste his time on the forums but has decided to take some of the material back and try to implement it into their training. Something which is more productive than trying to convince people whose minds are likely not to be changed regardless of what is said. Bottom line…The training speaks for itself!!!
Now, as people take our course regardless of the abuse on this forum, you will hear good things about us and you will read some good things about us. Again, not everyone is going to get sucked in to the online debates about training. I invited some of you via PM as my guest to come and train and you declined to do so and some of which never did reply, which tells me, and all of us, that you are hiding behind the keyboard. But none of you had the decency to say that in public where you continue to run your mouths without putting yourself in the training as JNR said. So, unless you are willing to come and train, then do us all a favor and give it a rest. Again, there is a 100% MBG. We shall see who the people with egos are… shall we not?
Hopefully for those of you who have been wise enough to stay out of this thread, you can see through these people who won’t even come and train FOR FREE. Everyone wants to bash something they don’t understand, but are unwilling to step up and experience good quality training for the sake of continuing to hide behind the keyboard.
One more thing, this is NOT a feel good course. Most people walk away with a rude awakening of the reality of a fight and the gun is not the solution to the problem. If you want a "feel good" course, DO NOT COME HERE TO TRAIN!!! If you want a dose of reality, then we are going to give you just that and nothing less.
____________________
Brian K. LaMaster - President, Innovative Tactical Concepts
Instructor - Counter Force International
Guess I don't get it, but then there alot of things in this world I do not understand!
ITC has posted a curriculum of their services. It has been discussed,
dissected, analyzed, criticized, and defended. I suppose if it were me, I would come to the conclusion that there is not a market for my services here, and leave it at that.
But that's just the way I am.
ITC has posted a curriculum of their services. It has been discussed,
dissected, analyzed, criticized, and defended. I suppose if it were me, I would come to the conclusion that there is not a market for my services here, and leave it at that.
But that's just the way I am.
Are any of those 10 students spending time on other forums Brian? If you look around this sure isn't the only gun board where people are questioning you and epic posts like your last one are only fueling the flames on here. This forum has a lot more going on than this thread. We have over 800 + Hoosiers signed up in less than 6 months and some of the most involved "gun people" in the state visit daily. Training junkies to those who love shooting sports and people who just enjoy getting out on the weekends and heading to the range. We have plenty of LEOs and "Swat Team Members" on here. They seem to do just fine.
I'll agree there are some silly posts in this thread but some of the people who are calling you out probably have more training under their belt than your last class combined. Many posters in this thread have trained with some of the most well respected instructors in the industry. These are people with 20 - 800 posts. Comments made by those members hold a lot more weight with people than the guy who comes on and makes one post. There is no rule you have to post a welcoming message on INGO but if you want your posts to hold some weight with the community you are going to have to participate in the community.
I will step up to put in the time, ammo, and gas money to take your class and write an honest review here. I will do this because I hope to learn some things, I enjoy training, and I think some people around here respect me and my opinions. (hopefully) I don't have the training back ground of some but more than most.
I don't appreciate any notion that this forum is "BS"
Mike
I'll agree there are some silly posts in this thread but some of the people who are calling you out probably have more training under their belt than your last class combined. Many posters in this thread have trained with some of the most well respected instructors in the industry. These are people with 20 - 800 posts. Comments made by those members hold a lot more weight with people than the guy who comes on and makes one post. There is no rule you have to post a welcoming message on INGO but if you want your posts to hold some weight with the community you are going to have to participate in the community.
I will step up to put in the time, ammo, and gas money to take your class and write an honest review here. I will do this because I hope to learn some things, I enjoy training, and I think some people around here respect me and my opinions. (hopefully) I don't have the training back ground of some but more than most.
I don't appreciate any notion that this forum is "BS"
Mike
