Inshallah Instructor Injures Individual

[JettaKnight]

I went last week to pick up our church sign.
I pulled out my wallet to pay.
It was a kydex front pocket wallet, not the type generally stolen by a ISP Trooper.

That opened the firearm discussion when he asked if it was kydex. His designer said I carry every where I go. I said good for you in exercising your rights. Then things went bad from there when he and the owner thought that day was show and tell day.

The designer unzips his backpack and pulls out his LCP to show me and was pointing it at the back of another designers head.
I said "You have that pointed at the back of your buddies head". His reply was "I don't keep one in the chamber"

I told him to get some training because you never point a gun at anything your not willing to destroy. He again goes back to the there's not one in the chamber. I ask him to put it back in the backpack.

The owner then pulls his M&P Shield from a desk drawer to show his prize perp stopper. I asked him to leave it holstered. He then says there's not on in the chamber

I had to get the heck out of there before I looked like Swiss Cheese.
I have to go back this week to get another sign. If any show and tell starts to happen I might have to repent for my actions.

Normally I'm against unchambered carry, but in this case...

 

[Gluemanz28]

Normally I'm against unchambered carry, but in this case...

I have thought a lot about it since last week. Unchamgered gave them a false sense of safety. They might actually do a better job if it was chambered.

 

[Rookie]

I heard the instructor was immediately hired by another school.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Doesn't anyone else buy blue guns?

Or at least yellow training barrels if they want it to go clicky clicky. (Instead of BOOM SH**!)

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Doesn't anyone else buy blue guns?

Yes, for almost every handgun that I'm willing to carry and then a few others I've collected as "bundle" purchases. Everyone in my classes uses blue guns and SIRT for my Familiarization class.

 

[HoughMade]

I heard the instructor was immediately hired by another school.

Once they found out there was a camera in the pocket of the guy in the other room who got shot, it all made sense.

 

[ATM]

I have thought a lot about it since last week. Unchamgered gave them a false sense of safety. They might actually do a better job if it was chambered.

Ask them why they choose to handle unloaded guns unsafely.

It removes their ability to respond with the excuse that 'eet ain't low-dead!' They have to actually process and come up with a reason.

If they can't come up with a damn good reason to handle any guns unsafely, they will be more apt to handle them all safely in the future.

You will have corrected and instructed them.

 

[ATM]

Yep, someone told him he could ignore Rule #1.

Who told him he could ignore muzzle discipline? It's the golden rule of safe gun handling:

1. ALWAYS Keep The Gun Pointed In A Safe Direction

 

[BGDave]

I have thought a lot about it since last week. Unchamgered gave them a false sense of safety. They might actually do a better job if it was chambered.

I believe you are on to something. Always chambered tends to keep guessing to a minimum. My Sig 230 stays chambered months at a time. The only time I intend to play show and tell with it, it will be with sound effects.
Please guys, stop quoting ATM. Thanks.

 

[ATM]

I believe you are on to something. Always chambered tends to keep guessing to a minimum. My Sig 230 stays chambered months at a time. The only time I intend to play show and tell with it, it will be with sound effects.
Please guys, stop quoting ATM. Thanks.

Guessing should never play any role in safe gun handling.

Ignoring me does not stop me from correcting, instructing, or addressing what you say, it only serves to hinder your ability to consider (or defend your own points) when I do.

 

[SSGSAD]

I prefer a more corrective and instructive approach than that when folks screw up so others might learn from each specific error committed:

1. Why did he point a gun in an unsafe direction? Was that door an immediate threat? Was there a safer direction? A bucket full of sand, perhaps?

2. Why did he pull the trigger if he wasn't ready for it to shoot? Was there some reason compelling him to demonstrate a click sound? Get a clicker.

3. Why did he use a gun that was loaded for use? Couldn't he have opted to use an inert training aid for demonstration purposes?

Also, that article kinda butchered even the old 4 "law" variation on safe gun handling.

A T M, you have asked many good questions, but you didn't ask the MOST important one .....


WAS it a GL--K ?????

That would answer all of it .....

 

[HoughMade]

???

 

[cbhausen]

Nebulous mindset rules don't work at all for me. I'd rather believe in solid behaviors that can be verified through observation. Always handle every gun according to safe handling rules and you will never have a problem whether it is loaded or not. Implying that gun should be treated differently whether loaded or not is asking for trouble and leads to complacency and accidents. It's not hard to figure out. Tell a toddler something is hot when you don't want him or her to touch it and sooner or later he or she will figure it out and touch without consequence. Then when they do touch the hot stove they get burned. The "every gun is always loaded" rule is kind of like that.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Ask them why they choose to handle unloaded guns unsafely.

It removes their ability to respond with the excuse that 'eet ain't low-dead!' They have to actually process and come up with a reason.

If they can't come up with a damn good reason to handle any guns unsafely, they will be more apt to handle them all safely in the future.

You will have corrected and instructed them.

You make very valid points, but once I passed my 50th birthday choosing the battles that I wish to participate in decreases daily.

Kind of like when certain people post, I'd like to chime in but then the nope, nada ain't going there part of me takes over.

 

[ATM]

You make very valid points, but once I passed my 50th birthday choosing the battles that I wish to participate in decreases daily.

Kind of like when certain people post, I'd like to chime in but then the nope, nada ain't going there part of me takes over.

Maybe I'll get there in a couple years, I'm still a youngster.

Please do at least consider the potential future victims of their unsafe gun handling (who may not possess the knowledge to correct or protect themselves from such negligent handling as you witnessed) when you make your choice.

 

[HubertGummer]

Deflect? I contrasted your non-corrective, non-instructive approach with something far better. You don't have to adopt it but you can't refute its value, either.



Where did he come up with the notion that unloaded guns aren't to be handled safely? Your knee-jerk response will never get to the heart of the matter, but real and direct questions will.

He chose to handle a gun unsafely. Even it had been unloaded, it still would have been handling a gun unsafely. The question remains and demands an answer: why?

I really don't want to start an argument but here is my thought.

Before you do dry fire practices, do you not check to see if the gun is loaded first? Of course you do, because you can't assume a gun is unloaded....ever. You must assume it is loaded until you verify that is not. You can handle guns as safely as possible all you want, but there is no safe way to dry fire unless you ALWAYS assume the gun is loaded so that you ALWAYS get in the habit of checking.

 

[Gluemanz28]

The more I think about my trip to the sign shop, the more I realized that I failed the first part of public firearm training I received quite some time ago. I'm sure this will open up the flood gates of bathroom jokes but it will make you think.

The instructor said the following on the first training session.
The proper way to handle your firearm will be conducted the way you go pee in a public bathroom.

You go into the bathroom and walk up to the urinal
Do NOT expose your junk or handle it until your positioned in front of the urinal
Remove your junk, keeping it pointed at the urinal
empty your bladder
put your junk away before you leave the urinal or turn around.
Never under any circumstances do you ask about another mans junk (that's rude and inappropriate)

Ok at first I thought this guy is a dirty old man. Then I realized how much the two have in common.

When the designer told me that he carrys everyday he then asked if I carry.
I said if I'm wearing pants then I'm carrying.
I was wearing pants that day so he was pretty sure I was carrying

He then asked what my EDC was. That's where I messed up.
After I told him what I was carrying he wanted me to see his EDC

I should have said "I don't like to talk about what I'm carrying because it only entices others to expose their gun". Leaving it safely stored until needed is proper EDC procedure.

Eveyday is a journey. My goal is to make it to the end.

 

[ATM]

I really don't want to start an argument but here is my thought.

It's not starting an argument, at least for me, it's just asking me to rehash something I've already covered before in other threads.

Before you do dry fire practices, do you not check to see if the gun is loaded first?

No. I don't check to see if the gun is loaded first.

Of course you do, because you can't assume a gun is unloaded....ever.

Looks like you jumped to a wrong conclusion there, but I also don't assume a gun is unloaded, it might be loaded.

You must assume it is loaded until you verify that is not.

Looks like you jumped to a wrong conclusion there, but I also don't assume a gun is loaded, it might be unloaded.

You can handle guns as safely as possible all you want, but there is no safe way to dry fire unless you ALWAYS assume the gun is loaded so that you ALWAYS get in the habit of checking.

This conclusion strikes me as nonsense at this point, since none of your presuppositions were correct.

Allow me to explain: When I want to dry fire, I don't check to see if the gun is loaded first, I check that third.

First, I ensure I have a safe direction to point it and conduct my dry firing before I even handle it.

Second, I keep my finger off the trigger, because I'm not prepared yet to shoot or dry fire.

Third, I either unload it or ensure that it already was, remove live ammo from the general vicinity and possibly load it back up with snap caps.

Not much different than this past discussion in another thread, on cleaning a gun without violating the 3 rules for safe gun handling:

...I decide to clean a gun. Let's go through this:

I'm going to handle it so I need to keep it pointed in a safe direction. Do I have one? Do I need to find or create a safe direction?

I'll keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to shoot. I don't intend to shoot right now nor am I planning to, but I must be prepared for the gun to do its only job so I also keep it pointed in the safe direction.

Since I don't want it to discharge a round, I will unload it or verify that it is unloaded.

Now I need to disassemble it which requires activating the trigger on many guns. Although I've taken steps to prevent it from firing a projectile, I intend to pull the trigger now and must be prepared (ready) for the fact that if I made an error, if it is not unloaded, it will shoot a projectile at high speed in the safe direction I have it pointed.

< Pulls trigger, disassembles gun, ignores rules for safe gun handling while cleaning parts>

Now I'm reassembling, apply safe gun handling when it again becomes a gun.

Any violations of safe gun handling? Anything unclear? Am I still rationalizing?

Please, let me know if you have any questions. If any of this doesn't make sense, I'd really like to hear why.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ask them why they choose to handle unloaded guns unsafely.

Umm, no, I am not a 5 year old. Why implies that someone has already been shot because Mr. Embroidered Shirt has already waved a gun about.

Firearm safety is to prevent harm to the wrong people.

 

[NHT3]

Why did he have ammo (not only in the firearm) but in the classroom. Especially if they were going over grip, stand etc, ETC, ETC

I don't know what others do but there is always a loaded firearm in my classroom and it's in my holster. I take my training equipment in a case and what comes out of the case gets handled by me and any students. None of my training aids are capable of being fired, blue guns, factory Glock cutaway and SIRT pistol. I would imagine most of the students don't know I'm armed and that's the way I like it.
Plain and simple the guy was just stupid and irresponsible and fortunate that injures weren't life threatening.


[FONT=&amp]“[/FONT]Safety is not something that you hold in your hands, it happens between your ears”
Col. Jeff Cooper