Integrating Across Disciplines/"platforms"

[WETSU]

Gents (and ladies),

I am curious about how some of you are working towards integrating your methods of fighting so they are all consistant as possible across the entire spectrum. In other words, your rifle style is compatible with your pistol style, your knife, stick and empty hand style etc. They are all integrated, so you have the smallest number of "tools" to select during a fight. Hicks law and all that.

I know its easy to be a tactics collector, borrowing a mixed bag of stuff you learned at a bunch of classes, and then none of it synchs with each other. So you end up shooting pistol differently than rifle, which is different than your knife style, which is 180 degrees different than your empty hand style.

It seems to be a constant struggle, to integrate, especially as you move down the martial path, continously training and picking up new skills, where do they fit it, if at all?

I am looking for tips and tricks that will be helpful to the perpetual student, on how you have managed to integrate your fighting styles, in a way that works for you.

Discuss.

 

[the1kidd03]

Gents (and ladies),

I am curious about how some of you are working towards integrating your methods of fighting so they are all consistant as possible across the entire spectrum. In other words, your rifle style is compatible with your pistol style, your knife, stick and empty hand style etc. They are all integrated, so you have the smallest number of "tools" to select during a fight. Hicks law and all that.

I know its easy to be a tactics collector, borrowing a mixed bag of stuff you learned at a bunch of classes, and then none of it synchs with each other. So you end up shooting pistol differently than rifle, which is different than your knife style, which is 180 degrees different than your empty hand style.

It seems to be a constant struggle, to integrate, especially as you move down the martial path, continously training and picking up new skills, where do they fit it, if at all?

I am looking for tips and tricks that will be helpful to the perpetual student, on how you have managed to integrate your fighting styles, in a way that works for you.

Discuss.

I'm not sure that I'm completely understanding your point?


you are wondering how to integrate hand to hand techinques, with that of pistol, and long weapon...and for what occasions each calls for in a form of "all around self defense training curriculum? I'm just looking for clarity to be able to provide better answer

 

[WETSU]

No, it goes way beyond that. I am talking graduate level fighting. I know how to do that. I would hope most people here do.

What I'm talking about is fine tuning, so you don't end up defaulting to five different disimilar styles when transitioning from rifle to pistol, empty hand, back up to rifle, back down to empty hand, back and forth in a fluid and dynamic situation.

In other words, do you use BJJ as your empty hand, but Kali for stick/knife work, but then you square off like a westren style boxer for rifle, yet go Weaver for pistol etc. Thats a lot of inefficiency moving from one to the other, if needed. Seems to me it should be as similar as possible to one another. And it should be IMO, I just want to know how others have sorted it out.

 

[the1kidd03]

No, it goes way beyond that. I am talking graduate level fighting. I know how to do that. I would hope most people here do.

What I'm talking about is fine tuning, so you don't end up defaulting to five different disimilar styles when transitioning from rifle to pistol, empty hand, back up to rifle, back down to empty hand, back and forth in a fluid and dynamic situation.

In other words, do you use BJJ as your empty hand, but Kali for stick/knife work, but then you square off like a westren style boxer for rifle, yet go Weaver for pistol etc. Thats a lot of inefficiency moving from one to the other, if needed. Seems to me it should be as similar as possible to one another. And it should be IMO, I just want to know how others have sorted it out.

I think I would tend to agree with you that your "styles" should be somewhat similar across the board. Of course, in a real life situation you may not be put into "ideal" circumstance which allow for you to utilize those methods and so it is important to train with various "hinderances." I tend to "square up" on a target with the "power foot" slightly back for extra support. Especially in a fire fight when you should try to present the front of your body. This is debatable depending on situation, and training style of course. The theory is that if you "square up" in the liklihood of getting struck with a round the placement of that round is going to play a key factor in it's affect on your body. On the other hand, some teach to "cant" in a "sideways" fashion with various stances. The theory for this is that you're making yourself a smaller target, but in the chance you are stuck that round is going to pass through MULTIPLE vital organs rather than maybe ONE.

am I getting on track with your line of thoughts/questioning? lol

 

[WETSU]

Yeah, you've got a piece of it. Regarding reality and hinderances, thats exactly why I am bringing this up. Integration seeks to reduce the number of styles/choices you have to make under stress, (ie Hicks law). I am talking more about flow, to a certain extent, rather than a specific stance.

I don't think any one person has all the answers, but I am looking at the work that Southnarc, Gomez, Suarez or Crafty Dog are doing. They seem to be assembling more of the pieces together. They are closer than most.

Shay? Mercop? Gomez? Tinman? Coach? Jeremy?

Thoughts?

 

[the1kidd03]

Yeah, you've got a piece of it. Regarding reality and hinderances, thats exactly why I am bringing this up. Integration seeks to reduce the number of styles/choices you have to make under stress, (ie Hicks law). I am talking more about flow, to a certain extent, rather than a specific stance.

I don't think any one person has all the answers, but I am looking at the work that Southnarc, Gomez, Suarez or Crafty Dog are doing. They seem to be assembling more of the pieces together. They are closer than most.

Shay? Mercop? Gomez? Tinman? Coach? Jeremy?

Thoughts?

So you're questioning how to effectively make a choice of proper response under stress (Hicks law) and transition from one choice to another as the situation necessitates changes? i.e. an attacker starts a hand to hand confrontation with you, you react accordingly, then he presents a knife in a suddent instant and thus completely changing your "style" and choices of how to combat....................this a more accurate description of your sought out opinions??

 

[mercop]

Blending everything is the what we should all strive for. It is hard, especially when you are most familiar or confident in one area. Takes dedication to train the weak spots.

Your mindset, training and tools has to be bases on your physical ability, tools you can carry, and most likely scenarios.

IMHO many people make the mistake of trying to be something they are not instead of what they need to be. Hope that makes sense. Make it all work for you.- George

 

[armedindy]

well i will say that boxing and playing football have made it very uncomfortable for me to "square up" when shooting guns...my right foot still sits at a heel-toe position with my feet just a bit wider than shoulder width...i know it may not be correct, but it is the most comfortable and natural feeling position for me to shoot rifles in...it seems like i can switch it up a little more with pistols

 

[mercop]

When it comes to shooting for personal protection, stance is a luxury you can seldom afford, no matter how much you practice it- George

 

[fireblade]

Gents (and ladies),

I am curious about how some of you are working towards integrating your methods of fighting so they are all consistant as possible across the entire spectrum. In other words, your rifle style is compatible with your pistol style, your knife, stick and empty hand style etc. They are all integrated, so you have the smallest number of "tools" to select during a fight. Hicks law and all that.

I know its easy to be a tactics collector, borrowing a mixed bag of stuff you learned at a bunch of classes, and then none of it synchs with each other. So you end up shooting pistol differently than rifle, which is different than your knife style, which is 180 degrees different than your empty hand style.

It seems to be a constant struggle, to integrate, especially as you move down the martial path, continously training and picking up new skills, where do they fit it, if at all?

I am looking for tips and tricks that will be helpful to the perpetual student, on how you have managed to integrate your fighting styles, in a way that works for you.

Discuss.

This is a very good question that goes into a lot of areas .....am going to give you what works for me and try to keep it simple so all can understand am not going to debate my opinion to others take it or leave it you ask what works for you and this is my answer.

Step one maximize cognitive choice reaction .............

First lets get a little into Hicks law there are ways to maximize your cognitive choice reaction ability.......as you know your brain can only handle and process so much bits of information at one time in a effective manner like a computer. The average brain can have 20-33 billion neurons in it, all these neurons communicate with each other with protoplasmic fibers called axon's which Carry's the information to neuron cluster brain centers. What make time ? it are brain perception of it . You can in a sense rewire your brain to increase neurons numbers and axons paths in certain parts of the brain from repetitive training ( this is why just knowing tactics with out being proficiently practicing with it will slow down your cognitive choice reaction ) also with repetitive training gives your body muscle memory. Which is comes in to play alot in hand to hand combat skill and shooting skill in high stress environments. On the subject of stress environments a person who exposed to it on a regular basis can learn to shut out what the brain doesn't need to process and become faster in cognitive choice reaction to the environment around them which gives us the terms Rookie and veteran.

Here a personal experience with the ability that can be learned to shut down items around you in a high stress environment that your mind doesn't need to process .........am in a firefight in Sadar city 5 clicks of route pluto the insurgents are trying to capture troops from a vehicle that was hit by a EFP during the fire fight i have 2 .50 cal machine gun firing to my left and right from gunners on other vehicles am headed to secure and protect the troops in damage vehicle at no time did i hear the .50 cal machine guns i know they were firing away my brain and body muscle memory knows it not important information so the noise form our .50 cal machine guns is not processed which is why i can't hear them my brain is opening up and maximizing neuron and axon path for other important information that around me like the enemy fire location of fire ....same time scanning for possible signs of a secondary explosive devises etc. one of the secrets in deciding the best method of what training to use and what to imply is to learn the ability to shutdown and not process and notice and items you know that are not a threat at that moment and this can only be learned from repetitive exposer to a stressfully environment.

Step two maximize cognitive choice reaction .........

Adrenaline loading skills.......... in a stressful environment were our "fight or flight" center of are brain come in to play are body dumps Adrenaline into its system which stimulates the heart-rate, contracts blood vessels, dilates air passages, In the midst of an adrenaline rush the reality of the person who is experiencing it may feel that time slows down. Again it how the brain is perceiving time it self under the Adrenaline. Here is another example on how you can train and control your body to you advantage, ALS-Adrenaline loading skill training is a advance form of training that give you a edge . Civilian use a small form of it all the time before sports event they yell pump each other up punch and bang heads it a natural way they are stressing there body's to start pumping up Adrenaline, or before rally any place that emotions can get high.................

Emotions there a key part of ALS if you are not in a stressful environment or exposer and time in a stressful environment numb down the stressful effect . You can use emotions to tell your body to start dumping Adrenaline . Every person has deep anger memory , or stressful emotion that can turn to anger this anger can release Adrenaline load in the system before a engagement of any enemy and can be trained to be turned on in a fraction of a second.......with this continuous Adrenaline loading when a stressful engagement does happen you get another bigger Adrenaline dump which give you the edge in combat or a survival situation. Now i recommend cautious use of this skill has some major side affects to it first you get insomnia regularly and its takes great discipline to control out of that environment second you start to become emotion harden from exposing your self to your darkest anger or emotions just hardness your other emotions in a large degree. But lets get back to the adrenaline effect to reality of the person who is experiencing it may feel that time slows down ....this is 100% true as many can say who have experience it ...it the effects it gives your body how it perceives time so it give it more time to make judgment decisions with the environment around it....and this with step 1 mind muscle memory and body muscle memory ....gives your body to make a decision before you realize it doing it ........just like if a man walks up to you with a knife the last second you see it, you have a gun and knife on you ,bam Adrenaline dump that faction of a second your body takes in all the muscles memory and brain training memory and decide from all the fighting simulation and repetitive training which weapon is the best one to use to stop this attack in this case the knife in the man hand before he even realize it does a slice motion as he using the attacker weight against him pushes the attacker past him with the other hand now that he has more distance and the attacker back is to him and off balance your already grabbing your gun just from muscle memory from again situation repetitive training.

　

Any way got into a ramble there..... having a truck load of tactics mean nothing if you are not proficient with them in stressful type of training combining different tactics and styles in training see what works best for you and what you are training for. And limit the number of tactic you train this way. when you have your skills down to muscle memory , and repetitive mind memory your body will decide what action to take before you even process the thought.........

　

　

　

　

 

[the1kidd03]

This is a very good question that goes into a lot of areas .....am going to give you what works for me and try to keep it simple so all can understand am not going to debate my opinion to other take it or leave it you ask what works for you and this is my answer.

Step one maximize cognitive choice reaction .............

First lets get a little into Hicks law there are ways to maximize your cognitive choice reaction ability.......as you know your brain can only handle and process so much bits of information at one time in a effective manner like a computer. The average brain can have 20-33 billion neurons in it, all these neurons communicate with each other with protoplasmic fibers called axon's which Carry's the information to neuron cluster brain centers. What make time ? it are brain perception of it . You can in a sense rewire your brain to increase neurons numbers and axons paths in certain parts of the brain from repetitive training ( this is why just knowing tactics with out being proficiently practicing with it will slow down your cognitive choice reaction ) also with repetitive training gives your body muscle memory. Which is comes in to play alot in hand to hand combat skill and shooting skill in high stress environments. On the subject of stress environments a person who exposed to it on a regular basis can learn to shut out what the brain doesn't need to process and become faster in cognitive choice reaction to the environment around them which gives us the terms Rookie and veteran.

Here a personal experience with the ability that can be learned to shut down items around you in a high stress environment that your mind doesn't need to process .........am in a firefight in Sadar city 5 clicks of route pluto the insurgents are trying to capture troops from a vehicle that was hit by a EFP during the fire fight i have 2 .50 cal machine gun firing to my left and right from gunners on other vehicles am headed to secure and protect the troops in damage vehicle at no time did i hear the .50 cal machine guns i know they were firing away my brain and body muscle memory knows it not important information so the noise form our .50 cal machine guns is not processed which is why i can't hear them my brain is opening up and maximizing neuron and axon path for other important information that around me like the enemy fire location of fire ....same time scanning for possible signs secondary explosive devises etc. one of the secrets in deciding the best method of what training to use and what to imply is to learn the ability to shutdown and not process and notice and items you know that are not a threat at that moment and this can only be learned from repetitive exposer to a stressfully environment.

Step two maximize cognitive choice reaction .........

Adrenaline loading skills.......... in a stressful environment were our "fight or flight" center of are brain come in to play are body dumps Adrenaline into its system which stimulates the heart-rate, contracts blood vessels, dilates air passages, In the midst of an adrenaline rush the reality of the person who is experiencing it may feel that time slows down. Again it how the brain is perceiving time it self under the Adrenaline. Here is another example on how you can train and control your body to you advantage, ALS-Adrenaline loading skill training is a advance form of training that give you a edge . Civilian use a small form of it all the time before sports event they yell pump each other up punch and bang heads it a natural way they are stressing there body's to start pumping up Adrenaline, or before rally any place that emotions can get high.................

Emotions there a key part of ALS if you are not in a stressful environment or exposer and time in a stressful environment numb down the stressful effect . You can use emotions to tell your body to start dumping Adrenaline . Every person has deep anger memory , or stressful emotion that can turn to anger this anger can release Adrenaline load in the system before a engagement of any enemy and can be trained to be turned on in a fraction of a second.......with this continuous Adrenaline loading when a stressful engagement does happen you get another bigger Adrenaline dump which give you the edge in combat or a survival situation. Now i recommend cautious use of this skill has some major side affects to it first you get insomnia regularly and its takes great discipline to control out of that environment second you start to become emotion harden from exposing your self to your darkest anger or emotions just hardness your other emotions in a large degree. but lets get back to the adrenaline effect to reality of the person who is experiencing it may feel that time slows down ....this is 100% true as many can say who have experience it ...it the effects it gives your body how it proves time so it give it more time to make judgment decisions with the environment around it....and this with step 1 mind muscle memory and body muscle memory ....give your body to make a decision before you realize it doing it ........just like a man walks up to you with a knife the last second you have a gun and knife on you bam Adrenaline dump that faction of a second your body takes in all the muscles memory and brain training memory and decide form all the fighting simulation and repetitive training which weapon is the best one to use to stop this attack in this case the knife in the man hand before he even realize it does a slice motion as he using the attacker weight against him pushes the attacker past him with the other hand now that he has more distance and the attacker back is to him and off balance your already grabbing your gun just from muscle memory from again situation repetitive training.

　

Any way got into a ramble there..... having a truck load of tactic mean nothing if you are not proficient with them in stressful type of training combining different tactics and styles in training see what works best for you and what you are training for. And limit the number of tactic you train this way. when you have your skills down to muscle memory , and repetitive mind memory your body will decide what action to take before you even process the thought.........

　
　

　

VERY well thought out answer and I couldn't have answered it any better....another +1 on the brain "choosing" what to process and a +1 on the "time slowing" effect...I've never really "thought" about it when it's happened to me, I just recognized that it did when I needed it to....and you effectively displayed exactly why training and training hard/long is necessary for isntances you should actually have to use it

 

[rhino]

When it comes to shooting for personal protection, stance is a luxury you can seldom afford, no matter how much you practice it- George

Indeed.

 

[cedartop]

WETSU, good topic. There is a phrase we use and I really like, I think it comes from Marc Denny." Consitency across catagories." This is the type of thing that we pay a lot of attention to in our training. You should be fight focused, not gun focused, our carbine focused, or whatever focused. You don't know ahead of time what your fight will be (usually).

To illustrate. When I recently anounced a MI rifle training group for SI Alumni, one of the guys wanted to know if he could come, even though he had never had rifle classes with us. I told him that if he was versed in the manipulation of his rifle, yes. This is because I happen to know he has had FOF and a couple of pistol classes from us, so he would recognize a lot of what we do with the rifle as being the same. We are not going to teach you adifferent "stance" for rifle, one for pistol, and one for H2H. There will be one base fighting position that will work with movement and all of the other things it needs to.

This is just one example.

 

[jeremy]

Gents (and ladies),

I am curious about how some of you are working towards integrating your methods of fighting so they are all consistent as possible across the entire spectrum. In other words, your rifle style is compatible with your pistol style, your knife, stick and empty hand style etc. They are all integrated, so you have the smallest number of "tools" to select during a fight. Hicks law and all that.

I know its easy to be a tactics collector, borrowing a mixed bag of stuff you learned at a bunch of classes, and then none of it synchs with each other. So you end up shooting pistol differently than rifle, which is different than your knife style, which is 180 degrees different than your empty hand style.

It seems to be a constant struggle, to integrate, especially as you move down the martial path, continuously training and picking up new skills, where do they fit it, if at all?

I am looking for tips and tricks that will be helpful to the perpetual student, on how you have managed to integrate you’re fighting styles, in a way that works for you.

Discuss.

Tough Subject to quantify…

There are so many ways to skin a Cat, and yet so many that may not work for each Individual. I focus mostly on my rifle skills and then pistol, and work occasionally on knife and hand to hand. As a Soldier I have noticed that in Combat, at least in my experience anyway, Rifle (Carbine) is the skill that is used 85% of the time. With pistol falling in at probably 10%, Knife and Hand to Hand filling in the last 5%.

I admit I spend most of my training time on my Rifle and Pistol skills. Not that I neglect my Hand to Hand or my Knife skills, but in my experience the Firearms are what is used. The only times I have actually used my hand to hand or my knife fighting skills has been in my impetuous youth when I thought going into a Turk Bar was a great idea of a fun time. I focus my skills on transitions from Pistol to Rifle, or Shotgun to Rifle and movements while I do the transitions.

I have found to many people focus on the how and lose the why along the way. Sure you can be the slickest operator, but if you fail to grasp Tactics, Strategy, and Logistics and how they tie together, you will still lose the fight...

 

[jdhaines]

Good point WETSU. I started thinking along these lines when seeing Die Less Often with Gabe and Marc. It sort of drove home the idea of Fight, no matter the tool. Since then, and I'll admit taking ECQC with you and the other guys really helped to crystallize this, I've chosen a squared up, athletic stance fighting system to work from. I've found that some things lend themselves easily to this, while others took some training. Think along the lines of the following picture, with maybe a touch more bend in the knees.

The specifics of the stance and footwork come from crazy monkey that I learned with the help of the TPI (shivworks) guys. It just makes sense though to run everything from there. Here's what I've been pushing for...all from this stance.

Empty Hand (Distance) - Crazy Monkey Defense (CMD)
Empty Hand (Clinch) - Mostly wrestling (both high school style and wrestling for MMA). Squared stance, athletic, elbows tight to sides, shoulders shrugged, ready to explode. A teeny tiny bit of judo in there as well, but that really takes serious practice.
Empty Hand (Ground) - BJJ. Bottom game based on good open guard looking for simple high percentage sweeps. Top game based on intense top pressure and being able to disengage when I choose. IE: knee on belly being better than back control with hooks.
Knife - RGEI ala shivworks or FGEU ala Mercop, all from my normal hand-to-hand stance. Squared up, basing attacks off of what they throw out. Both styles work on hooking and shearing defenses out of the way, or hooking and shearing attacks off-line depending on the situation.
Sap / Street Stick - Mixture of knife and empty hand distance techniques
Pistol - CMD stance, shoulders up, squared, positive drive to target
Rifle - (just getting started with this, but same idea. Squared up, dynamic athletic stance)
I'm not listing these because I'm accomplished, but I've learned where to go for help with each facet, and I'm working them on a twice weekly basis as often as possible as well as increasing strength and conditioning. I feel like it's a good set of skills to base goals on, and I know people who have taken each of these pieces of the puzzle to a high level and been successful so the roadwork is there.

 

[esrice]

I agree that consistency across all platforms is the desired goal, and something that we should always keep at the forefront as we distill new techniques and procedures.

A recent example:

A couple of years ago I was formally introduced to several different techniques for holding a light while shooting in the dark. I tried them all, and found that they all had specific strengths and weaknesses. The one I found to work the best for me was a jaw index. Although I was now shooting one-handed, it allowed me to see around both sides of a barricade, it lit up my sights, and I felt more protected with my flashlight hand held high and near my face.

Fast forward to 2011 when I was taking Mindset Lab's Flashlight Combatives course. As we worked through techniques where no firearms were employed, I was glad to see that the technique I had felt most comfortable with for shooting also crossed over to searching, IDing, and striking with just a flashlight.

Now I have a single technique that I can practice and employ regardless of if I have a flashlight, a stick, a gun, or some combination thereof.

Its these kind of "lightbulb moments" that I search for when training. I'm looking forward to continuing the search this year with Mindset Lab's other FoF offerings.

 

[mercop]

I have found it hard to find people to train with that don't only want to focus on one thing or the easy thing. For the last several years I have had one training partner. Just recently I have taken on two more guys as personal students. So now we have a group of four like minded people that are hard on each other.- George

 

[Paul Gomez]

It seems crazy to even talk about it nowadays but not that long ago in law enforcement there was no integration. Firearms were taught by Firearms Instructors. Defensive Tactics by DT Instructors, Pepper Spray by OC instructors, Baton by someone else. And every one of them taught something completely different regarding body positioning, movement, stance, etc.

It is widely recognized that that was a foolish way to do things so now everyone talks about integration. The problem arises when the 'instructor' can only talk about it!

The number of times I've heard someone spout off about integrating ridiculously ineffective techniques would be laughable if the consequences weren't, potentially, so dire.

 

[jeremy]

It seems crazy to even talk about it nowadays but not that long ago in law enforcement there was no integration. Firearms were taught by Firearms Instructors. Defensive Tactics by DT Instructors, Pepper Spray by OC instructors, Baton by someone else. And every one of them taught something completely different regarding body positioning, movement, stance, etc.

It is widely recognized that that was a foolish way to do things so now everyone talks about integration. The problem arises when the 'instructor' can only talk about it!

The number of times I've heard someone spout off about integrating ridiculously ineffective techniques would be laughable if the consequences weren't, potentially, so dire.

It was/is not just a Law Enforcement issue...

It was not that long ago that the Military Shunned even the thought of teaching live fire and movement at the same time. Let alone Integration of different disciplines. Only the Elite SOCOM Boys were allowed to do something so potentially dangerous...