Investing in COPPER???????

[Indy317]

you are still thinking in modern currency terms as in "IOU's" which our currency isnt even that anymore, its finite.

In terms of metals and other items, their value won't be thought of in terms of modern currency. Unfortunately, I a barter economy is usually too hard for millions upon millions, and even thousands upon thousands, to work with everyday. After a government backed currency collapses, you will likely see a barter economy spring up, but eventually it will be too hard to continue living. Instead of wallets and coin holders, do we all want to carry around Army backpacks filled with tools, ammo, guns, etc. since we won't know what any particular item owner will take for a needed item?

So what happens are that people start transposing values to physical items which quantity, content, and quality is known. Precious metals have been used as a store of wealth for thousands of years, because it is rare. Folks aren't going to take small 1 oz. vials of sand or dirt in trade for tools, because that stuff will be thought of as valueless because anyone can get that from their yard, desert, or beach.

If such an economy emerges, folks will give more value to the pre-82 pennies knowing they contain more copper than zinc. That's really the only reason to store those vs. current day pennies.

 

[CountryBoy19]

In my opinion copper is not worth an investment. Copper isnt gold and if you look at past copper prices, it just doesnt have the gains gold and silver have. Copper may hit 15 or 20 bucks a pound eventually, but its not a jewelery metal and to sell it you pretty much have to go to a recycleing center. The last time I cashed in copper at a recycleing center it was 3 something a pound. The investment just isnt there in my opinion.

Open mouth.... insert foot...

28.5% gain in 6 months

14% gain in 6 months



I think you're perceiving that copper doesn't have gain, just because it doesn't command a very high price such as silver and gold, but believe me, just because it doesn't have a high price does not mean it doesn't have high gains.

Silver and gold are traded both as commodities, and as currencies, while copper is mainly traded as a commodity. That means copper fluctuates a lot more than the former 2, and that gives you much more room for gain (also more room for loss).

If you're looking to hedge your money against inflation, then silver and gold would be a good bet. But there is very little "real gain" there.

If you're looking for an actual investment copper would be good. Try to invest when copper is down.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I think silver and gold will soon fall. im done buying both for now until they do. if Im wrong, then its fine. I have what I set as my personal goal. but if gold goes back down to $800 an OZ like I think it will then I will buy more. I never touch my personal reserve. If you have gold or silver you dont need, I would sell it now and make the people buying it eat it when the bottom falls out. Gold and silver is still being dug out of the ground. and theres plenty of it left according to scientist, so if a large supply is introduced into the market then say bye bye to high gold and silver prices. I wouldnt stake my life savings all in gold right now. I would buy property for cash. no one is creating more property.

 

[Martin Draco]

I'm an electrician and the only investing in copper I do is the hundreds of pounds of scrap I get stuck with every few months. If you are going to invest in copper do not buy it from ebay. You can strike deals locally with plumbers and electricians. I accumulate so mush wire that I have a machine that strips it. Gold and silver are more "investible" because by weight you get more $. If you had the equivilent of caopper that is worth a pound of gold, you would fill a room in your house.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Gold and silver are more "investible" because by weight you get more $. If you had the equivilent of caopper that is worth a pound of gold, you would fill a room in your house.

I think you are confused about the difference between "investing" (for monetary gain) and "preparing" (hedging inflation, preparing for the collapse of modern currency etc).

Investing in copper is much better than gold or silver.

Yes, like you said, you can't really store a large value of copper, but that's not the point of an investment. Most metal investments are in the form of certificates; essentially you have a piece of paper that says you own it.

Preparing for the collapse of the dollar etc is where you want to have the real asset in your possession, in that case gold and silver may be a better option just because you can store a larger value in smaller volume storage space. But that is a moot point unless you're literally dumping $25k plus into these items.

From my calculations, a 55 gallon barrel will hold 3500 lbs of copper pennies. At $3/lb (very conservative value) that is over $10k.

If you look at my graphs above you can clearly see what is the better investment.

Then tack on that copper is much more useful in a shtf/collapse scenario and we have the answer as to what the average person should be investing in. If a person came to me and wanted to trade for something, I'd take copper over gold/silver, just because I can actually use copper.

Copper Pennies are VERY useful. They are conveniently already in the right shape to draw a jacket for making your own jacketed bullets in SHTF. Just swage them a bit to remove the ridges etc, then drop them in your drawing die.

 

[Joeyidgaf]

metal prices in general are inflated. I follow gold and silver daily. I am one of the lucky ones who bought gold 10 years ago. I am going to hold with hopes of hitting the 2000 mark. However, I dabbled in copper in my youth and there will always be a demand and long as your willing to HOLD. It doesn't matter what it is as long as you can hold? Guns,Real estate, Star war toys and yes copper. Wait til a lull and then buy!!!

 

[ATOMonkey]

There was a reason pennies were made from copper...

It's not worth much, but it is worth SOMETHING.

Also remember that copper fueled the world for quite some time before they found iron. Copper is easy to work with, easy to extract from ore, and alloys well.

Not a bad thing to have in a pinch.

 

[Martin Draco]

I think you are confused about the difference between "investing" (for monetary gain) and "preparing" (hedging inflation, preparing for the collapse of modern currency etc).

Investing in copper is much better than gold or silver.

Yes, like you said, you can't really store a large value of copper, but that's not the point of an investment. Most metal investments are in the form of certificates; essentially you have a piece of paper that says you own it.

Preparing for the collapse of the dollar etc is where you want to have the real asset in your possession, in that case gold and silver may be a better option just because you can store a larger value in smaller volume storage space. But that is a moot point unless you're literally dumping $25k plus into these items.

From my calculations, a 55 gallon barrel will hold 3500 lbs of copper pennies. At $3/lb (very conservative value) that is over $10k.

If you look at my graphs above you can clearly see what is the better investment.

Then tack on that copper is much more useful in a shtf/collapse scenario and we have the answer as to what the average person should be investing in. If a person came to me and wanted to trade for something, I'd take copper over gold/silver, just because I can actually use copper.

Copper Pennies are VERY useful. They are conveniently already in the right shape to draw a jacket for making your own jacketed bullets in SHTF. Just swage them a bit to remove the ridges etc, then drop them in your drawing die.

I only used the word investible because others used that word, and thats why it was in quotes.
So in a worst case scenario situation, how are you going to use the certificates to make bullets? Why not just buy bullets to be prepared, instead of barrels of pennies? You are right about $3 being a conservative value. I've been getting $4/LB. My point was since he was looking at copper bars on ebay, a cheaper way would be to get it locally. As far as actually investing in it, yes you are absolutely correct it is great because you don't need a lot of $ to get into investing in copper and it's way more useful throughout the world. It has also gone up considerably just like gold and silver. EXAMPLE: A roll off wire I paid $12 for back in 2000 is $52 today.


Perhaps he should stock pile silver for making bullets in case SHTF situation involves werwolves

 

[E5RANGER375]

Perhaps he should stock pile silver for making bullets in case SHTF situation involves werwolves

Best idea in this whole thread!

 

[ATOMonkey]

I think being a werewolf in a post apocolyptic world would be awesome.

I just need to get bit without it eating me. That's the tricky part.

 

[CountryBoy19]

So in a worst case scenario situation, how are you going to use the certificates to make bullets? Why not just buy bullets to be prepared, instead of barrels of pennies?

You're not going to, that was the point of my post. I was trying to delineate buying metals as an investment or as a preparedness item.

IMHO, either way you look at it, copper is a better "investment" to a certain extent. If you're buying purely for financial investment copper has a better chance of high gains. OTOH, gold/silver are more stable. If it's purely investment, then it doesn't matter if it's just a piece of paper, your plan is to sell that piece of paper again in the future.

If you're buying it as a preparedness item then gold/silver become a little more desirable, but only when you get into the high-dollar figures where storage becomes an issue. Copper is much more useful in everyday life of a person trying to survive some type of SHTF so I think it is best to invest in physical copper before silver or gold. Silver and gold, in SHTF will be used almost purely for trading as a form of currency. What if the person you're trading with doesn't want silver or gold, but wants food? Silver and gold will have limited use. However, copper has multiple uses to the average joe, both physically, and monetarily. You're much more likely to find a person that will take copper in trade than gold/silver because they can likely use the copper.


ETA, just a few examples of some potential local uses of copper vs. gold/silver in a total crass scenario.

A local person, with an electrical background can make wind generators, but he needs something to make wire for the windings. Is he going to choose copper, silver, or gold for that?

A local guy is setup to make jacketed bullet but doesn't have anymore copper for the jackets. Is he going to use copper, gold, or silver for that?

There are lots more uses of copper as well. But just as a counter point, the usefulness of silver and gold is primarily in the electronic circuity and jewelry industries. Neither of those will be in high demand in the above type scenario, so those two metals will likely be limited to use as a currency based up their "perceived" value. However, in a post-apocalyptic world there really isn't much value to them at all. They're just perceived as valuable because that is the way it has always been.

You can find out a bit more about why they hold little real value if you do some reading around the net. I don't want to get too long-winded.

 

[Martin Draco]

You're not going to, that was the point of my post. I was trying to delineate buying metals as an investment or as a preparedness item.

IMHO, either way you look at it, copper is a better "investment" to a certain extent. If you're buying purely for financial investment copper has a better chance of high gains. OTOH, gold/silver are more stable. If it's purely investment, then it doesn't matter if it's just a piece of paper, your plan is to sell that piece of paper again in the future.

If you're buying it as a preparedness item then gold/silver become a little more desirable, but only when you get into the high-dollar figures where storage becomes an issue. Copper is much more useful in everyday life of a person trying to survive some type of SHTF so I think it is best to invest in physical copper before silver or gold. Silver and gold, in SHTF will be used almost purely for trading as a form of currency. What if the person you're trading with doesn't want silver or gold, but wants food? Silver and gold will have limited use. However, copper has multiple uses to the average joe, both physically, and monetarily. You're much more likely to find a person that will take copper in trade than gold/silver because they can likely use the copper.


ETA, just a few examples of some potential local uses of copper vs. gold/silver in a total crass scenario.

A local person, with an electrical background can make wind generators, but he needs something to make wire for the windings. Is he going to choose copper, silver, or gold for that?

A local guy is setup to make jacketed bullet but doesn't have anymore copper for the jackets. Is he going to use copper, gold, or silver for that?

There are lots more uses of copper as well. But just as a counter point, the usefulness of silver and gold is primarily in the electronic circuity and jewelry industries. Neither of those will be in high demand in the above type scenario, so those two metals will likely be limited to use as a currency based up their "perceived" value. However, in a post-apocalyptic world there really isn't much value to them at all. They're just perceived as valuable because that is the way it has always been.

You can find out a bit more about why they hold little real value if you do some reading around the net. I don't want to get too long-winded.

The original post was about future value, but you're right about everything you said. I have seen the price of copper rise and fall along with every numismatic. I personally have made many things with copper and it is very easy to work with.

 

[.40caltrucker]

A local guy is setup to make jacketed bullet but doesn't have anymore copper for the jackets. Is he going to use copper, gold, or silver for that?

Good point I've never thought of maybe needing the copper for bullets. Wouldn't be a bad idea in that sense. 10,000 pennies is only $100 wrapped up in it, I know I've got at least $20 in pennies at last count in the piggy bank.

How many pennies does it take to make a bullet? Lets say a .45.

 

[localone]

I seen copper bullets online and there a little pricey..Does anyone on ingo make copper bullets...I will suplly some copper in exchange for some rounds..I have 2.2 pounds of .999 i think that could make alot of bullets

 

[CountryBoy19]

Good point I've never thought of maybe needing the copper for bullets. Wouldn't be a bad idea in that sense. 10,000 pennies is only $100 wrapped up in it, I know I've got at least $20 in pennies at last count in the piggy bank.

How many pennies does it take to make a bullet? Lets say a .45.

Well, because pennies are already conveniently in a disc shape it is easiest to use 1 penny for a bullet jacket.

If I ever get a small machine shop setup for myself (lost my access to that when I graduated from college) I plan to make my own jacket drawing die, and bullet swaging dies. Really all you do is smash the penny flat, put it in the die and it turns the copper disc into a copper cup. Then you drop a lead slug in and swage the bullet, this shapes the bullet and presses the jacket and lead core together. For large calibers like .45 the penny is almost perfect if forged/swaged out thinner and larger in diameter. For smaller calibers (.224 bullets) you could use .22 lr cases.

I suppose you could probably get more than 1 jacket out of a penny, but it would be tough. You would probably have to smelt them down, and form copper ribbon, then punch discs out of it, then follow the procedure above. Then resmelt the scrap from the ribbon and do it again. But that process would take a lot more energy and machinery to do, that is why it's easiest to just make a single jacket out of a penny.

I seen copper bullets online and there a little pricey..Does anyone on ingo make copper bullets...I will suplly some copper in exchange for some rounds..I have 2.2 pounds of .999 i think that could make alot of bullets

2.2 lb... or 15,400 grains. If you make 50 grain bullets you're looking at 308 bullets. 230 grain bullets you'll get 66 of them.

Not quite what I would call a lot of bullets, but more than you had before. And in SHTF, that may mean all the different between living another day or not.

BTW, you don't have to make solid copper bullets. You can just use the pennies for bullet jackets in higher velocity rounds that would otherwise cause bad leading etc.

 

[teddy12b]

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but I think if you're going to get some precious metals it's got to be silver is you think you may ever need to barter with it or it's got to be gold if you want it for an investment. As far as copper goes, it's debatable on whether it's good to buy bullion stock of it right now for investment. The idea of getting setup to melt pennies into bullets after SHTF doesn't seem like the best place to put our efforts. If SHTF we're going to farming, gardening, hunting, and fishing, but we're not going to have the time to start blacksmithing bullets out of pennies. When I consider the amount of time it's going to take to learn to melt the pennies and form bullets correctly and then have them be remotely accurate it's just not going to be worth it, let alone you're still hoping to find powder, primers, & brass. It's fun to think through such a thing and how we'd do the work, but in reality I think you're better off just buying another case of ammo now. In my opinion the only copper I have stashed away is ammo.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but I think if you're going to get some precious metals it's got to be silver is you think you may ever need to barter with it or it's got to be gold if you want it for an investment. As far as copper goes, it's debatable on whether it's good to buy bullion stock of it right now for investment. The idea of getting setup to melt pennies into bullets after SHTF doesn't seem like the best place to put our efforts. If SHTF we're going to farming, gardening, hunting, and fishing, but we're not going to have the time to start blacksmithing bullets out of pennies. When I consider the amount of time it's going to take to learn to melt the pennies and form bullets correctly and then have them be remotely accurate it's just not going to be worth it, let alone you're still hoping to find powder, primers, & brass. It's fun to think through such a thing and how we'd do the work, but in reality I think you're better off just buying another case of ammo now. In my opinion the only copper I have stashed away is ammo.

As stated above, no melting necessary, and it's really not as hard as you might think. A person could crank out thousands of bullets on a standard reloading press in a single day. It's no different than casting bullets. But jacketed bullet let you push them to higher velocities.

Btw, powder and primers can be made (primers can be "refilled" in shtf). And there WILL be time to do those things. If ammo is in short supply, it will be made a priority. Look back to the furthest of times. Everybody had a weapon; weapons were a priority. So don't say that we'll be farming, hunting and fishing, and won't have time to maintain an ammo supply to feed our weapons. Time will be made to do that.

Buying another case of ammo now isn't really practical advice. A case of ammo only has one use, copper has tons of uses including ammo. The thread was talking about investing in metals. We're just having a discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of different metals. As already stated in the thread, gold and silver don't have much practical use, it's only used as a currency. And arguably it's "value" is inflated by a perceived sense of "value". It's a bit cyclic there, it's valuable, because it has always been valuable.

Imaginary conversation: But why is gold valuable? Because it's rare. But why do I care that it is rare? Because it's rare, Jim Bob wants some too. If everybody wants some because it's rare, it makes it valuable. But why does Jim Bob want some? Because it's valuable. But what will Jim Bob use it for? Uh... to trade to other people because it's valuable. Why would other people take it just because Jim Bob says it's valuable? Because it's rare and valuable. But why? What practical purpose does it have? Uh... I think high-end electronics circuits have very small amounts of gold in them. And that makes it valuable? Yeah, I guess it makes it valuable to the people that make them? So why do Jim Bob and his neighbor think it's valuable they don't make circuit boards? Well, because the company that does will need their gold. That company is in California, how will they get the gold there? Uh... Idk, can you quit asking so many questions, gold is valuable because it just has always been that way.

Gold and silver won't do squat to feed your family unless you can find somebody that will give you food for your gold/silver. Bartering useful, practical items is much, much better, and copper is much more useful, and much cheaper than the other two.

Copper can, and will feed your family, either via the bullet that you send down range when hunting or defending them, or via bartering to somebody else that needs copper for X, Y, or Z use.


I'm not saying gold and silver are completely useless, just saying that copper has a much more diversified field of usefulness in a SHTF scenario and the storage space of copper doesn't become an issue until you get well into the 5 figures range of value.

Obviously the type and degree of SHTF will determine how useful each metal becomes in that situation.

 

[Bunnykid68]

The pennies have to be 1981 or older for decent copper content.

 

[CountryBoy19]

The pennies have to be 1981 or older for decent copper content.

Yes, older than 82 are sure to be 95% copper.

They switched mid-way through '82, so for 82' pennies you have to weight them to know the difference. I just throw them all in a can for later sorting. May someday I will come across a really precise balance beam and I'll drop a copper penny on one side, and check the rest on the other against the known copper penny. That is the fastest way I can think to do it.

 

[teddy12b]

Btw, powder and primers can be made (primers can be "refilled" in shtf). And there WILL be time to do those things. If ammo is in short supply, it will be made a priority. Look back to the furthest of times. Everybody had a weapon; weapons were a priority. So don't say that we'll be farming, hunting and fishing, and won't have time to maintain an ammo supply to feed our weapons. Time will be made to do that. Fair enough arguement. I guess post SHTF you'll have time to learn how to make ammo from scratch since it'll be at the top of the list. It just seems a little bit too much like an old McGuiver(typo) episode. How many rounds have you loaded up using the techniques you're describing? I'm just assuming that you've done it before since you're advocating it strongly, and I'm curious how it went for you.

Buying another case of ammo now isn't really practical advice. Why wouldn't it be? I thought the point of being prepared was to be prepared ahead of time. When the alternative you describe is taking apart old primers and "refilling" them it just seems that getting stocked up ahead of time would be a better solution. A case of ammo only has one use(completely wrong, ammo can be bartered), copper has tons of uses including ammo. The thread was talking about investing in metals. We're just having a discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of different metals. As already stated in the thread, gold and silver don't have much practical use, it's only used as a currency. And arguably it's "value" is inflated by a perceived sense of "value". It's a bit cyclic there, it's valuable, because it has always been valuable.

My point of buying the extra ammo over the copper bars or whatever is that the ammo can be used for bartering as well. Right now a 1000 rounds of brass cased 223 can be had for $300; steel cased for less. Why not buy ammo in the popular calibers now that will have a better chance of being in demand should SHTF. I've read on a lot of threads about predictions of people expecting to use 22lr as a form of currency for goods because of it's usefullness. That's one of the reasons why I have a lot of it at the house.

To each their own, and with every preparation we make we are potentially betting our lives on that resource being useful to us later on. For myself I don't see raw copper material being as useful in trading/bartering when the options of gold, silver, 22lr, 9mm, 45, 223, 308, & 30-06 are going to be more commonplace. That's just my two cents, and you're all free to bet your lives on copper if you'd like to, but I'm not. I wish you all the best of luck.