Is Colion Noir right about open carry?

[gglass]

So, in other words: their skirt was too short, so it was their fault they were raped?

Sure, why not.

 

[ljk]

I don't open carry, I'm not trained and I don't want the attention and liability come with it. But I understand why people do it, that's their rights.

Plus some states open carry is the only way to carry without jumping over all the hoops to obtain a CCW permit, if you can get one.

 

[Route 45]

So, in other words: their skirt was too short, so it was their fault they were raped?

I'm not sure that open vs concealed actually applies to vaginas. You may have a bad analogy.

 

[jcole123]

Colion has had a couple videos out on why he doesn't open carry. This rebuttal video that's pro-open carry was posted today. Thoughts?

I agree with Colion, but it’s really a matter of preference. Whatever you do as long as it’s done legally it doesn’t matter. That’s the beauty of choice, there’s more than 1 option.

 

[wtburnette]

I'm not sure that open vs concealed actually applies to vaginas. You may have a bad analogy.

I actually think it's a pretty good comparison. Does doing something that may make you more likely to have problems make you partly to blame? Is it the same for people who bury their noses in their phones or listen to music everywhere they go, oblivious to their surroundings who end up getting mugged or into an accident? Most of us know that we bear responsibility for our actions and that means for everything we do. Yeah, the criminal is gonna criminal, but there are things you can do to reduce your chances of being a victim.

 

[chipbennett]

I'm not sure that open vs concealed actually applies to vaginas. You may have a bad analogy.

I'm quite sure that open vs concealed carry does not apply to vaginas, but that's beside the point. To reiterate what I was replying to:

He is neither right nor wrong. Open and concealed carry are simply choices that people make, and as such, they must take responsibility for their actions.

The times I have open carried, I keep my head on a swivel, and stay extra vigilant to people who are getting near me. If someone chooses to open carry in a relaxed and oblivious state, then any negative thing that happens is on them, and hopefully they can live with that.

 

[chipbennett]

Sure, why not.

I'm going to assume that's a troll response, and give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't actually believe that women who wear too-short skirts deserve to be raped.

 

[chipbennett]

I actually think it's a pretty good comparison. Does doing something that may make you more likely to have problems make you partly to blame? Is it the same for people who bury their noses in their phones or listen to music everywhere they go, oblivious to their surroundings who end up getting mugged or into an accident? Most of us know that we bear responsibility for our actions and that means for everything we do. Yeah, the criminal is gonna criminal, but there are things you can do to reduce your chances of being a victim.

Exactly. There are wise and unwise actions, and the latter may make one more susceptible to becoming a victim - but merely acting unwise does not transfer blame for the crime/harm to the victim from the criminal.

 

[wtburnette]

Exactly. There are wise and unwise actions, and the latter may make one more susceptible to becoming a victim - but merely acting unwise does not transfer blame for the crime/harm to the victim from the criminal.

Yep. It's on us to minimize risk by our actions. We can't control other people, but we can at least partially control how others perceive us.

 

[chipbennett]

Yep. It's on us to minimize risk by our actions. We can't control other people, but we can at least partially control how others perceive us.

On that point, I agree wholeheartedly. It is wise to engage in actions that help us avoid [stupid people, stupid places, stupid times, etc.], because it helps us avoid risk of harms of varying degree.

Where I draw the line is twisting that into asserting that the victim "had it coming" because of those unwise actions.

When it comes to carry of firearms, we largely can't control how others perceive us, and IMHO our choices should not be dictated by those perceptions when those perceptions are irrational. Also, the single-best way to change those perceptions is to normalize the lawful open carry of firearms. While I personally prefer concealed carry 99.9% of the time, I also recognize that when I carry concealed, I contribute absolutely nothing to any effort to normalize the lawful carry of firearms (because concealed is concealed).

 

[KLB]

Is it the same for people who bury their noses in their phones or listen to music everywhere they go, oblivious to their surroundings who end up getting mugged or into an accident?

You're good, except leave those getting into "accidents" out of it. They are most likely to blame for it.

 

[NyleRN]

On that point, I agree wholeheartedly. It is wise to engage in actions that help us avoid [stupid people, stupid places, stupid times, etc.], because it helps us avoid risk of harms of varying degree.

Where I draw the line is twisting that into asserting that the victim "had it coming" because of those unwise actions.

When it comes to carry of firearms, we largely can't control how others perceive us, and IMHO our choices should not be dictated by those perceptions when those perceptions are irrational. Also, the single-best way to change those perceptions is to normalize the lawful open carry of firearms. While I personally prefer concealed carry 99.9% of the time, I also recognize that when I carry concealed, I contribute absolutely nothing to any effort to normalize the lawful carry of firearms (because concealed is concealed).

This is EXACTLY why I posted what I did in post #5. Choose how you want but be wise in doing so

 

[hooky]

Yep, got to protect you from dangerous viewpoints that hurt your feelings or damage your fragile ego. I'm sure Zuckerberg appreciates his service.

I wish you luck in your quest to move from plinker to shooter status.

 

[jamil]

So, in other words: their skirt was too short, so it was their fault they were raped?

We can correctly identify when a person’s action contributes to a bad outcome without assuming that it amounts to 100% of the cause. You leave the car doors unlocked, it’s the burglar’s fault. But you contributed at least a little. That was the point I got out of it. If you open carry without the SA required, and some bad outcome proceeds from that, didn’t you contribute at least a little? Isn’t that a legitimate point? It’s not a point against OC’ing, because even CC’ing requires the same SA. To me it’s just a point about being responsible.

 

[chipbennett]

We can correctly identify when a person’s action contributes to a bad outcome without assuming that it amounts to 100% of the cause. You leave the car doors unlocked, it’s the burglar’s fault. But you contributed at least a little. That was the point I got out of it. If you open carry without the SA required, and some bad outcome proceeds from that, didn’t you contribute at least a little? Isn’t that a legitimate point? It’s not a point against OC’ing, because even CC’ing requires the same SA. To me it’s just a point about being responsible.

I'm going to quote, one more time, the statement I was responding to. He didn't say "contributed at least a little"; he said "any negative thing that happens is on them":

He is neither right nor wrong. Open and concealed carry are simply choices that people make, and as such, they must take responsibility for their actions.

The times I have open carried, I keep my head on a swivel, and stay extra vigilant to people who are getting near me. If someone chooses to open carry in a relaxed and oblivious state, then any negative thing that happens is on them, and hopefully they can live with that.

 

[KLB]

It’s not a point against OC’ing, because even CC’ing requires the same SA. To me it’s just a point about being responsible.

If it applies to both, why point it out for only one?

 

[jamil]

I'm going to quote, one more time, the statement I was responding to. He didn't say "contributed at least a little"; he said "any negative thing that happens is on them":

Yup. I read that. I suppose it would be fair to correct that part but I don’t have a reason besides the words to nelive he meant 100% of the fault. Maybe I interpret that too charitably. If he did mean 100% of the fault then I stand corrected. It’s worthwhile to nitpick on what people mean when they say something, I guess.

 

[jamil]

If it applies to both, why point it out for only one?

That would be a fair argument, but one no one made. Is a CC’er any less responsible for something going wrong that they should have cared more about?

I’m not picking a side. I don’t care how anyone carries. My only involvement in these discussions usually is, don’t tell me I have to CC, and don’t tell me I have to OC. I’ll carry whichever way I ***damn want. But also, don’t make bad arguments about the other.

 

[KLB]

That would be a fair argument, but one no one made. Is a CC’er any less responsible for something going wrong that they should have cared more about?

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. By specifically calling out one method, he would seem to place blame on that method. Why would you mention open carry specifically if you are referring to everyone. I see the insinuation being that CC covers for being relaxed and oblivious.

The times I have open carried, I keep my head on a swivel, and stay extra vigilant to people who are getting near me. If someone chooses to open carry in a relaxed and oblivious state, then any negative thing that happens is on them, and hopefully they can live with that.

 

[jamil]

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. By specifically calling out one method, he would seem to place blame on that method. Why would you mention open carry specifically if you are referring to everyone. I see the insinuation being that CC covers for being relaxed and oblivious.

huh? I’m saying that the argument you proposed is a good one.