Is it more desirable for Buckshot to shoot tight or spread out?

[rambone]

This is sort of a tangent thought to the excellent range report provided by lovemywoods. He demonstrated the differences in shooting different brands of buckshot from a 12 gauge. Some brands shot a tighter pattern, and some spread the pellets out much wider. The shot pattern ranged from 1-6 inches in diameter, when fired from twenty-five feet downrange.

In a gunfight scenario, is it more desirable to have a tight shot pattern or a wide shot pattern?

On the one hand, a tight blast will deliver lots of energy to one spot on the enemy.

On the other hand, a wide blast will deliver pellets across more space, devastating more tissue. Perhaps a slight increase in chance of hitting your target as well.

Thoughts?

 

[shooter521]

hand, a tight blast will deliver lots of energy to one spot on the enemy.

On the other hand, a wide blast will deliver pellets across more space, devastating more tissue. Perhaps a slight increase in chance of hitting your target as well.

The tighter the better, IMO. Shot placement is key with ANY firearm, shotguns included. I want to know exactly where those 8/9/12 pellets are going to go at a given distance, and the more pellets I can get into the vital structures in the upper torso or brain box, the better. A load that patterns nice and tight makes things easier in both regards.

Also, if you keep a shotgun as your home defense weapon, consider the fact that you might be forced to take a high-percentage (i.e. hostage taker) shot with it. I'd be OK doing that with the LE132 00 as patterned out of lovemywoods' 870, but not with some of the other loads he tested, and certainly not with stuff designed to throw as wide a pattern as possible.

Heck, if overpenetration wasn't such an issue, I'd load my HD shotgun with slugs and be done with it.

My

 

[45calibre]

I have wondered this also and why use buckshot for HD if a shot in home defense will be at very close range and unlikely that the shot will spread. What will happen at say five feet with buckshot?

 

[cubby]

tight.

 

[printcraft]

I have wondered this also and why use buckshot for HD if a shot in home defense will be at very close range and unlikely that the shot will spread. What will happen at say five feet with buckshot?

5 feet? Would not even make it out of the wadding I'm pretty sure.

 

[Mr. Habib]

I'll go with tight. If I need a larger pattern that's what the rest of the magazine is for.

 

[45calibre]

So at that distance why even use a shotgun if it won't even come out the wadding?

 

[cubby]

So at that distance why even use a shotgun if it won't even come out the wadding?

same reason you use a 28 oz. hammer instead of a 16oz.

 

[Arm America]

I'm for the scatter.

The shorter barrel (legal) shotgun is my weapon of choice
for HD and is exactly what it was designed for, to scatter.

At 25 feet, I feel confident it will stop or eliminate any threat
that has chosen to invade my privacy.

On a side note, over penetration is not a huge concern of mine
due to the location of surrounding neighbors.

Just my opinion, worth just what it cost you.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I shot some 00 buck, after I instaled the 18.5" barrel on my 500. At ten feet It produced about a 4"-5" inch pattern. This was using plain jain Remington 00 buck 9 shot.

 

[esrice]

What will happen at say five feet with buckshot?

This is a question only your shotgun, with your ammo, can answer. That's why it's important to pattern your gun, to see what the various ammo types look like on paper. If you use your shotgun for HD, you should know exactly what your defensive ammo choice will do at 5ft., 10ft., 25ft, etc.

As for the OP, my preference is tighter. (everyone has a different mission, and I'm sure wider would be a better choice for some other missions)

Aimed fire is what guns are good at-- get a grenade if you want wide scatter. We are responsible for EVERY shot that we take, and that applies to the 8/9/12 pellets in 00 buckshot. Even if the BG takes 5 .32 caliber hits, that still leaves other pellets that hit something else-- could be a lamp, a TV, or an innocent bystander.

Another advantage of tight 00 buckshot is that it almost acts like a pseudo 'fragmenting bullet', in that those pellets are free to transfer energy in many different directions upon impact.

 

[Gungho_1989]

I agree with tight patterns, as has been stated shot placement is paramount with any firearm even a shotgun. As shooter521 also stated you may have to take a tight shot and changing loads midfight is virtually impossible. You also don't want an errant pellet passing by the target.
My weapon of choice is a shotgun for home defense more often than not but I have to always be conscious of the back ground due the close proximity of my neighbors, like shooter521 I think the best fight stopper on the planet is a 12 gauge slug but pass through is serious concern for me.
I know of a guy who makes alot of money tweaking barrels to shoot tighter patterns and I spent a bunch of money on one years ago and never looked back. My experience over the years tight patterns are by far the consensus among the vast majority of Home defense, LE shotgunners.


A bit of my ADD showing but do you guys remember the "duckbill" that came out for shotguns back in the 80's!?

 

[shooter521]

I shot some 00 buck, after I instaled the 18.5" barrel on my 500. At ten feet It produced about a 4"-5" inch pattern. This was using plain jain Remington 00 buck 9 shot.

For a long time, the conventional wisdom has been that buckshot spreads about 1" per yard of travel. For some loads and load/gun combinations that might still hold true, but obviously the newer "performance" loads (Hornady Tap, Win Ranger, Fed Flite Control, etc) have well surpassed that and are holding tighter patterns to farther distances than ever before.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I wish this thread had a poll so I could be sure my SHTF supplies are all stocked with only the most popular items. I'd hate to be shooting zombies or something with shells that are out of style or don't expand the correct number of inches per foot of travel.

 

[IndyGunworks]

The Tighter The Better!!!

 

[Jack Ryan]

The Tighter The Better!!!

So all melted together in to a slug would be best?

 

[Gungho_1989]

For a long time, the conventional wisdom has been that buckshot spreads about 1" per yard of travel. For some loads and load/gun combination that might still hold true, but obviously the newer "performance" loads (Hornady Tap, Win Ranger, Fed Flite Control, etc) have well surpassed that and are holding tighter patterns to farther distances than ever before.

Exactly right, I have fired a number of different loads over the past few years and the loads are getting better and better. The Federal is rather impressive out of pretty much any shotgun I have ran it through, the Hornady TAP is a great load as well.
I am surprised there hasn't been a detailed evaluation on loadings for some time for 12 ga shotguns. Some of the gun rags have touched on groups with author preffered loads through evaluated shotguns but I havn't personally seen anything detailing the current offerings.

 

[esrice]

I'd hate to be shooting zombies or something with shells that are out of style

(everyone has a different mission, and I'm sure wider would be a better choice for some other missions)

So all melted together in to a slug would be best?

Another advantage of tight 00 buckshot is that it almost acts like a pseudo 'fragmenting bullet', in that those pellets are free to transfer energy in many different directions upon impact.

Jack, you're just so old school.

 

[lovemywoods]

Paper targets are not good predictors of stopping power

I believe there is a disconnect when contemplating shotgun patterns and stopping power. What you see on a paper target doesn’t accurately predict ammo performance on a human target.

When you shoot #8 birdshot at a paper target, it blows bits of the target apart and peppers a large area. If you believe that a human target would be likewise affected, you would be inclined to believe the #8 shot is a manstopper. Tests using water jugs shows that birdshot has very little penetration and thus is a poor choice for home defense. (http://www.theboxotruth.com/) has some very interesting real-life tests of shotgun ammo.)

Conversely, hit a paper target with tight patterning buckshot and you might conclude that having the pellets so tight is wasting some stopping power. What I don’t know is whether it’s better to have 9 smaller wound channels over a 4” circle or to have massive disruption in a gaping 1.5” wound channel with pellets spreading out in different directions. Neither scenario is one I want to personally test on the downrange side! I will note that the Flitecontrol ammo from Federal literally blew the back half of a large pumpkin into tiny bits. It’s not scientific, but it was impressive!

Data from actual shooting incidents is the best information to use. Unfortunately, it’s not easy to get for the wide variety of firearm models and shell loadings and many police agencies are reluctant to release such sensitive information.

I still like to pattern my ammo so I know where it's going to strike. But as I do that, I remind myself that the reaction on paper does not tell the full story about strikes to human flesh.

So, we’re each left to decide for ourselves what shotgun ammo to use. For me, I’m choosing the tight patterning variety with the Federal 132-00 or 133-00 as my first choice.

 

[Jack Ryan]

When you shoot #8 birdshot at a paper target, it blows bits of the target apart and peppers a large area. If you believe that a human target would be likewise affected, you would be inclined to believe the #8 shot is a manstopper.

It's not a scientific survey or anything but I've seen what game loads of 6's and 4's will do to a deer caught in a fence. I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of it but it wouldn't be my first pick to use against an armed human adversary. I wouldn't give up and run back to the house for my 45 if that's all I had though. Not many people are as tuff as most deer.