Is there a duty to act?? What would you do?

[Caleb]

If you're so worried about doing the right thing then it shouldn't be a problem to cover the expense after all it's the principle right? I mean we all need to help each other out. Everyone who feels that way should set up a defense fund so you can all do your part in helping out with keeping everyone safe, I mean that way people would not be as reluctant to be involved. You're darn right I'm not willing to pay the price for a stranger. I have a wife and kids that come first and if that's too cold hearted and selfish so be it; and I wouldn't blame anyone for reacting the same way were I or a family member involved. Is it quite possible to end up in a lawsuit after using deadly force where you were not a direct participant before capping a round off? - think so; should it be that way after a shoot is determined to be justifiable? - nope, but that's another discussion. I'll stick with being a good witness.

NOTE: The opinions stated in my posts are made assuming the situation presented in the original post.

I know who I can't trust to help me out if I get into a pickle

 

[ATM]

...I mean that way people would not be as reluctant to be involved...

Some other fear would take its place and become their justification to do nothing.

If you need every possible personal risk removed before you would consider intervening on behalf of a victim you aren't related to, I'd call that apathy and cowardice.

Sadly, that sort of reluctance is rife in our nation these days. This was not always the case.
People once staked their honor, their fortunes and their lives upon doing what was right for others

...and their families expected them to.

 

[dbd870]

I know who I can't trust to help me out if I get into a pickle

Under the conditions stated in the original post of this thread - you're right, I'm not going to intervene, at least at that moment.

Sadly, that sort of reluctance is rife in our nation these days. This was not always the case.

That's because of how one would be treated today vs in the past.

 

[Caleb]

Under the conditions stated in the original post of this thread - you're right, I'm not going to intervene, at least at that moment

You make it sound like you'll only intervene if you or your family is in harms way...everybody else can just get shot up because you're too afraid you'd might get sued...

 

[ATM]

That's because of how one would be treated today vs in the past.

Disgraced, bankrupted, killed, etc...

I doubt those feel much different today than they ever have.

If anything, they're easier now since there's so many more government programs available to take care of your family in your absence.

 

[blamecharles]

If you're so worried about doing the right thing then it shouldn't be a problem to cover the expense after all it's the principle right? I mean we all need to help each other out. Everyone who feels that way should set up a defense fund so you can all do your part in helping out with keeping everyone safe, I mean that way people would not be as reluctant to be involved. You're darn right I'm not willing to pay the price for a stranger. I have a wife and kids that come first and if that's too cold hearted and selfish so be it; and I wouldn't blame anyone for reacting the same way were I or a family member involved. Is it quite possible to end up in a lawsuit after using deadly force where you were not a direct participant before capping a round off? - think so; should it be that way after a shoot is determined to be justifiable? - nope, but that's another discussion. I'll stick with being a good witness.

NOTE: The opinions stated in my posts are made assuming the situation presented in the original post.

I really hope my gf never needs you for two reasons. 1) I love her and dont want her hurt. 2) you sound like a coward. I hope your family never needs me but i will shot some asshat if they do. The only thing i need to hear to make it worth it is "you saved my life thank you"

 

[cncfrench]

Yeah that pink paper is not a police badge, you are not here to fight crime and arrest people.

someone would have to be in danger for me to unholster, but I agree with others on here that I would be as good a witness as possible. I can't say for 100% certainty what I would do until I was put into that situation though

 

[CJK]

Good question as bad things seem to be on the rise these days. Going with the OP's question, if no gun is drawn and said perp is asking for and taking the drugs, prepare myself for possible defensive move, but let him go if no life/lives is in danger.

If life/lives in danger then prepare for the possibility of shooting to kill or shooting to incapacitate the perp.

 

[Hammerhead]

Since you're so concerned with the idea of being sued for acting, and using that as a reason to keep from doing so, let's look at the self defense statute in the IC.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

Emphasis mine.

Sure you can be sued. I could sue you right now for any reason. You seem to think that a law suit against you by some unknown party for putting yourself in a situation where you're defending yourself or someone else would hold merit. Clearly the IC proves otherwise.

Next argument?

 

[rw496]

That sounds right. After several months of stress and thousands of dollars in legal bills paid to your lawyer so that he can argue with the other lawyer about what is "reasonable", you would probably be vindicated.

 

[Archbishop]

Since you're so concerned with the idea of being sued for acting, and using that as a reason to keep from doing so, let's look at the self defense statute in the IC.



Emphasis mine.

Sure you can be sued. I could sue you right now for any reason. You seem to think that a law suit against you by some unknown party for putting yourself in a situation where you're defending yourself or someone else would hold merit. Clearly the IC proves otherwise.

Next argument?

Unless I'm mistaken, your take on the law is too simplistic. This statute only states that you won't be criminally charged. This has nothing to do with you being sued civilly. (SP)
Criminal and civil are two separate issues. Criminally you're good to go, but this won't stop the family from saying you used too much force and deprived them of their loving, gentle, kid, dad, brother whatever.
Even assuming that you win in civil court you can expect to loose years of your life defending yourself and a lot of money. (10s of thousands if not over 100 thousand.)
This what I'm talking about when I say, if I see a robbery going down I don't lift a finger unless I reasonably believe someone is going to be injured or killed.
I'm about middle of the rung. If I pull my gun on a robber who's simply making off with your goods and I plug him or what not and then go through a year or two of hell and loose my house and cars in the process, who helps put my life back together? And this is the best case scenario. If I don't dot my "i"s cross my "t"s then I'm off to jail leaving my wife to raise boys alone.
Do what you gotta do. And mean that with sincerity if you can't sleep at night knowing that you should intervene then don't let me stop you. I choose wait until life is truly endanger before intervening.
I can hear the argument now, what if I wait to long and some good person ends up dead? That will be really hard, I'm sure, but that's a risk I'm willing to take and frankly is a risk everyone takes with their own safety when working behind the counter of any business.
I could make the what if" argument that you might actually endanger more lives by intervening. I won't because it smacks of the anti crowd, but still might be worth considering that things might not go as smooth as you have it planned out in your head.
This might be one of those threads that well have to agree to disagree. (God I hate that term.) Everyone's tolerance levels are different.

 

[jon5212]

^^^ I Believe that IC refers to criminal and civil liabilities. Key words being Legal trouble of "ANY" kind. That would be a blanket statement for criminal and civil liability.

And to the original topic at hand, If I can be a witness and nobody has been threatened then I'll do that. If perp has pulled a weapon on an unarmed person I'll take them down because that is the right thing to do.

 

[Hayseed_40]

That sounds right. After several months of stress and thousands of dollars in legal bills paid to your lawyer so that he can argue with the other lawyer about what is "reasonable", you would probably be vindicated.

You'd be lucky if only thousands...

 

[finity]

Again, to all those who are concerned about being sued for a legitimate self-defense action:


SHOW ME THE CASES FROM INDIANA WHERE THIS HAS BEEN DONE!!

IF IT AS COMMON AS YOU SAY THEN THERE SHOULD BE NUMEROUS EXAMPLES TO CITE.

LET'S MAKE IT EASY. JUST START WITH ONE.

Errr...please...?

 

[MikeDVB]

Again, to all those who are concerned about being sued for a legitimate self-defense action:


SHOW ME THE CASES FROM INDIANA WHERE THIS HAS BEEN DONE!!

IF IT AS COMMON AS YOU SAY THEN THERE SHOULD BE NUMEROUS EXAMPLES TO CITE.

LET'S MAKE IT EASY. JUST START WITH ONE.

Errr...please... ?

I don't think that there is a history of it, as much as that it's possible. On the other side of the coin, you could be sued for anything at any time (doesn't mean they would win).

There are really too many variables when it comes to answering this question. If I saw a gun and knew it was act or somebody (innocent) would die and I had the training to recognize whether I could hit the target without collateral damage I would likely take action.

Would I feel bad if I didn't draw and fire and the BG shot an innocent person? Absolutely... Would I feel worse if I shot an innocent mistakenly while trying to defend somebody - yes.

I hope that I can train/learn how to handle various high-stress situations that would require using my weapon but I hope even more that I never have to make real-world use of that training.

Being fairly new to firearms I'm looking at this from a very inexperienced perspective - and I have no issue admitting that.

 

[finity]

I don't think that there is a history of it, as much as that it's possible.

Anything is POSSIIBLE.

It's POSSIBLE to have a snow storm in August. It's POSSIBLE that I could perform successful brain surgery. It's POSSIBLE that we could have a black president (oh...wait...nevermind that one ).

I have no problem stating that there is a slim possiblity of being sued, no matter how slight.

The issue I have is all of the "OMG YOU'RE GOING TO BE SUED IF YOU DEFEND YOURSELF " statements that everyone makes in threads like these like it's some kind of foregone conclusion when, as you said, there is really no history of it happening in IN.

All that does is make people afraid to act at a time when their life (or the lives of others) are on the line because they have it implanted in their minds that it WILL happen & they will lose EVERYTHING they own to legal fees.

 

[indiucky]

Sit and watch. But if I was told to go to a back room or the robber started to shoot people I would do whatever ever I could not to be a victim.

Everyone has a line that can't be crossed. Looks like ours is the same.

 

[Hayseed_40]

It would be on a case-by-case basis.

I would not be in fear of a lawsuit, injury, the bath water overflowing, but I would be congnizant of the fact. Is my family with me, out in the car, at home? How much tactical advantage do I have? Where is his partner?

My family relies on my income to survive. My children look to their father for wisdom (STFU). I have to be very careful about putting myself in a position to take that away from them.

On the other hand, I feel we do have a moral obligation to help those in dire need when we can.

As I have said in another thread, I am not a cowboy or knight on a white horse. But, if agreeable, I will do my best to defend the defensless.

 

[24Carat]

AGAIN ! I try to interject into the conversation . . . .

What happened to "No Legal Liability"?

It is in the IC. There is no distinction between criminal or civil.

It says "No Legal Liability" !!

Cut and dried, discussion over.

 

[jbombelli]

AGAIN ! I try to interject into the conversation . . . .

What happened to "No Legal Liability"?

It is in the IC. There is no distinction between criminal or civil.

It says "No Legal Liability" !!

Cut and dried, discussion over.

Not quite...

The phrase is "...legal jeopardy..." not "...legal liability..."


In Black's Law Dictionary, the term Jeopardy is defined as "The danger of conviction and punishment which the defendant in a criminal action incurs when a valid indictment has been found, and a petit jury has been impaneled and sworn to try the case and give a verdict in a court of competent jurisdiction..." and has nothing to do with civil suit.

To the best of my knowledge you can be sued in Indiana after a righteous shoot. They'll just claim the force wasn't "reasonable." Based on the righteousness of the shoot, they might have a hard time finding an attorney to take the case, and may well have a hard time winning, but I don't believe that prevents them from trying. Any attorney worth his salt, though, would probably tell them they're going to spend a lot of money and then lose, but again that doesn't preclude them from trying.


More discussion here:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...llowed_against_lawful_self_defense_in_in.html

and here:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._homeowner_and_the_burgler_tx_court_case.html

and here:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo.../31099-self_defense_and_lawsuit_question.html


edited: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. But I do my best to understand my rights and responsibilities as a citizen, and to know the potential ramifications of whatever course of action I might choose to take in a given situation.