Is this standard opporating procedure?

[jbombelli]

You have your reaction, the people have theirs

That's little consolation to your family if you're the one that gets shot by the side of the road over being just a little too gung ho, by some jackwagon who was a little too gung ho.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

"It is one thing to see a policeman's gun. It something totally different when one begins to hear it."

 

[nashfred01]

Cops have a job to do that leads them to areas that most don't want to go to and to deal with people that most don't want to deal with. They choose this profession and because of this choice, they are given discretion on how they do this job. I am very pro-2nd amendment and I think civilians should be able to protect themselves. Just as all civilians are not bad, not all cops are there to take your guns and kill you. As long as my rights aren't violated, I'm fine with how a cop chooses to perform traffic stops. If you look at officer involved shootings, you will find that the majority of the time, officers will error on the side of not being prepared for a deadly threat. It is more likely the cop be unprepared than scared out of their wits and shoot you just because. Bottom line, there are cops that have no business having guns and there are civilians that have no business having guns. That is not for me to decide and I think if both sides use common sense and responsibility, things will workout.

 

[ticktwrter]

Here is a guy to shed some light on this. I understand what you are saying. Now to ask you some questions. I'm not looking to tell you how to conduct your job, just looking for some serious discussion.

I have been stopped like this. If not by you then by an officer who conducts himself the same way. My question; do you consider the possible ramifications of approaching my car with your hand on your gun? When I see this in my mirror, and I HAVE more than once, I am threatened. My first thought is "Where is MY gun?". Is that the thought you want to be in my head at this point? I often see cops leaning on their gun like it is a counter-top or something, an unconscious mannerism brought on by the comfortable ever present object on their belt, one of the several objects there. This is not threatening. I have on other occasions saw an officer with his hand deliberately on his gun and a demeanor that he is considering drawing it at any moment. This is threatening. Have you considered that you are telegraphing your insecurity and thereby escalated the possibility of a problem several levels even before first contact?

I am not the only civilian who responds to an overt threat in kind. I am not likely to take your bullet simply because you have the legal authority to shoot at people at random and I don't. There is a disconnect between what the law requires and what is a normal common response that any average person might have. I am supposed to submit to your drawing and possibly shooting me, but you could be betting your life that I will respond in this UNNATURAL and conditioned way. It's possible that I will think " Sorry, I go home at the end of my shift if I have anything to say about it". (I know that you cannot deny this sentiment.... It is YOUR quote)

I am not being an internet tough guy. I am being realistic. I know myself and I know how I react to certain stimulus. As for myself, it's much safer to show some courage when confronting me than it is to try to rely on intimidation. I concede that your intent may not to be intimidating but rather your only concern is to be ready for a problem. You may even feel that we BOTH are safer if you are commanding the situation. What you may not know is that there are more people than you know who are just like me. Instead of commanding the situation, you have needlessly endangered both of us and the general public to boot, by SHOWING insecurity in a threatening way.

I'm sorry you view my caution, concern and training as "insecurity." I take my personal safety and that of the public VERY seriously. I have been to many police funerals of officers murdered just for stopping to check on a disabled vehicle and traffic stops. I do intend to go home after my shift as I am sure you wish to do as well. There has been an increase in ambushes of police officers lately. I read an article just this evening of an officer who was being set up for an ambush. The bad guy was sitting in a park that was being closed. The officer was just doing his job closing the park. Luckily he was safety conscious.....not "insecure" and instead of walking up to the car to tell the driver to leave and then being the victim of an ambush, he used his PA and told the driver to leave. The bad guy circled the car behind the officer, who by now had hidden in the shadows as this move by the bad guy would be suspicious. The bad guy bumped the police car hoping to get the officer to exit the police car and then become a victim. Luckily the officer won the confrontation and arrested someone determined to kill an officer. If you consider me a threat as I approach your car after exiting a fully marked police car in uniform and my hand on my gun that I cannot prevent, but that sounds more like paranoia and "insecurity" to me. I think some on here need to realize police ARE just human beings and have the exact fears and desires as everyone. I don't start my shift thinking "whose rights will I violate today." Are there asswagons wearing uniforms? YES! But the few instances people cite of officers doing the wrong thing is farm eclipsed by thousands of officers EVERYDAY doing the job and never hearing anything about it.

 

[Booya]

It's pretty clearly a reference to the fact Indiana still has a death penalty, and murdering someone can get you in that strappy table. You say you wouldn't stop and say you'd respond to an overt threat and the implication sounds pretty close to saying you'd shoot a cop for having his gun out as he walked up to your car. What would you do on a felony stop? Where the guns were actually pointed at you?

I answered you honestly, but I will also say if a motorist fled and then escalated the situation by pulling a gun because of some paranoid fantasy of police randomly shooting compliant motorists, if I'm the cop I'll shoot you and if I'm the jury I'll vote to put a needle in your arm. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

So the simple lesson is, of course we both want to go home. So pull over when I'm behind you with lights and sirens and do what I tell you to do for the duration of the traffic stop. Stop pretending its reasonable to assume I'm pulling you over to murder you or that I'll negligently shoot you with a gun behind my leg, where if I negligently shoot anyone it'll be me. Then neither of us gets shot, arrested, or executed...and we both get to go home.

Ya. This.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

I haven't made a judgment against what I saw last night, yet. I did recognize that he was making every effort to hide that he was prepared to wail lead. It was my impression that he was not acting in an intimidating manner, from the drivers perspective at least. I appreciate his consideration for the driver, really. The thought just struck me that it was very possible that I have been under the gun without my knowledge before too. This makes me very uncomfortable. I wonder how common it is. A few people admitted that they do this occasionally, Occasionally is more acceptable to me than always.

I DO have an opinion on approaching me with the hand right on the weapon. I am threatened at this point. It makes me think about my gun right when that thought is the last kind of thinking the officer wants from me. I demand everything an officer demands, such as respect, a civil tone AND to go home tonight. These standards are not just the purview of the police but MY right as well. When an officer demands "Officer Safety" but does it at the expense of MY SAFETY...... That's not going to work for me. I am not alone feeling like this. It is not safe, or in the interest of public safety in general. If I got testy it was on this subject.

My "paranoia" was learned under sheriff McAtee. BehindBlueEyes, you gave a list of "When was the last time" questions. The answer to those questions is "When (ever) a McAtee was in charge.

I HAVE been a victim of McAtee's Gestapo in the past. I know that was a long time ago. It is the experience from that time that ALL of you officers are being painted with even today by very many Indy citizens my age and older. The sins of the fathers falling on the sons, as it were. I suppose that this is extremely unfair. Sorry. I remember when NOT running from the police was a fatal decision. Back then you never stopped unless there were witnesses.

Mayor Ballard ran on the platform (among others) of cleaning out the rat's nest that was the Indy police presence, and has done very well. I saw a thing that was reminiscent of my youth and wondered if we were doing that again, and just when I was thinking that things seem different than before. I thought I would ask about it. Of course the typical macho us vs the turds has to make its appearance..... maybe things are not as different as I was thinking it was after all. That's all I wanted to know

 

[remauto1187]

I always do.

Not me! I go out in the driveway guns a blazing!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

My "paranoia" was learned under sheriff McAtee. BehindBlueEyes, you gave a list of "When was the last time" questions. The answer to those questions is "When (ever) a McAtee was in charge.

I HAVE been a victim of McAtee's Gestapo in the past. I know that was a long time ago. It is the experience from that time that ALL of you officers are being painted with even today by very many Indy citizens my age and older. The sins of the fathers falling on the sons, as it were. I suppose that this is extremely unfair. Sorry. I remember when NOT running from the police was a fatal decision. Back then you never stopped unless there were witnesses.

Mayor Ballard ran on the platform (among others) of cleaning out the rat's nest that was the Indy police presence, and has done very well. I saw a thing that was reminiscent of my youth and wondered if we were doing that again, and just when I was thinking that things seem different than before. I thought I would ask about it. Of course the typical macho us vs the turds has to make its appearance..... maybe things are not as different as I was thinking it was after all. That's all I wanted to know

Ok, what compliant motorist was shot under McAtee?

Ballard cleaning out the "rat's nest" is bull****. There was no rat's nest to clean out when Ballard took office. That is largely an invention of Straub, inventing a problem then "fixing" it for political gain.

You want to go home safe, but let me ask you this: How is a hidden handgun any more threatening to you, as a compliant motorist, than a holstered handgun. If I want to murder you, that's what the difference will be? If there's an ND, is it pointed at you? Come on. You know good and well that this isn't logical and there is exactly ZERO more or less threat with either approach to you as the motorist. If the goal is for both of us to go home at the end of the stop, stop talking yourself into seeing a threat where there is none. It's not macho or "us vs them" to point out the simple reality that cops aren't hit squads, that its murder to shoot someone who is acting in their official capacity.

 

[rhino]

I just had an idea. Why not have police officers address minor traffic violations just like static traffic cameras?

• When they observe someone breaking a rule, use cameras mounted on the vehicle to get an image of the vehicle, license plate, and driver (if possible).
• If the driver continues to break the regulation(s), hit the red & blue lights. If they return to operating their vehicle within the rules (which should be the goal), no other action by the officer is necessary.
• Driver received the bad news in the mail, just like when they are busted by a traffic camera.
• If they continue the infraction or worse, then stop the vehicle as is done now.

This could:

• Eliminate a lot of unnecessary interactions between private citizens and police officers
• Save time for everyone involved
• Save money for taxpayers
• Eliminate the inherent risks of stopping vehicles on busy roads and freeways
• Retain the option of more intensive interaction when needed (as noted above)

 

[X piller X]

I have answered my front door like that before.

with the wierdo running around beech grove I too have started this

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Ok, what compliant motorist was shot under McAtee?

Ballard cleaning out the "rat's nest" is bull****. There was no rat's nest to clean out when Ballard took office. That is largely an invention of Straub, inventing a problem then "fixing" it for political gain.

You want to go home safe, but let me ask you this: How is a hidden handgun any more threatening to you, as a compliant motorist, than a holstered handgun. If I want to murder you, that's what the difference will be? If there's an ND, is it pointed at you? Come on. You know good and well that this isn't logical and there is exactly ZERO more or less threat with either approach to you as the motorist. If the goal is for both of us to go home at the end of the stop, stop talking yourself into seeing a threat where there is none. It's not macho or "us vs them" to point out the simple reality that cops aren't hit squads, that its murder to shoot someone who is acting in their official capacity.

Blue eyes...... You are one of the officers here that I have a lot of respect for. You tell it like you see it, and you try to explain things rationally. You are slow to become frustrated, but I see that I have frustrated you now.

I LIVED it on the east side of Indianapolis. I know PERSONALLY of two east side officers that ran the drug trade in Irvington back then. What, do you need names? It would be easy for you to decipher it yourself, Who were the two officers in Irvington Back then? Which one was arrested by his own partner? Who interestingly enough was as deep in it as John was? OOPS.... I gave up states evidence there. These were decorated officers, pillars of the community. My good friend DIED.... Poisoned by a cop's dope. What councelman who lived on Downy Ave was convicted of dealing out of his Michigan st. gas station?

These mentioned guys were only sacrificial lambs for others. Oh yes there was a rats nest, and it was bigger than the police dept. I don't mind telling you! You are correct that it had largely fallen (at least by my knowledge) apart well before Ballard got to office. He was riding the tide of disgust that was started in the '70s and '80s and rode it right into office. If you say it wasn't true how then was it used so successfully?

I know a lot more than I will say. If you are as smart as I know you are you will not dig up long buried bones either. My point is that you cannot deny the existence of a culture that I LIVED IN. I am now an old man. An angry, bitter old man. (Get off my lawn!) I will never live under a corrupt police officers gun again. Kill me now... If you can. Now that old wounds are raw again I will answer your questions

A hidden handgun is indication that the decision to kill me has already been made. You are approaching MY car ALREADY with the resolution to take my life. What? I am different than you? How do YOU react if a citizen were to covertly draw his gun as you are approaching his car? Are YOU ok with that? Or Does the fact that you are an officer make you special? Does it make your life more sacred than MINE?

You know damn well that the presence of a gun in hand is a threat whether you know it is there or not. I know you know this because that is exactly why you have drawn your own gun as you are approaching my car! You are preparing for the existence of my gun yourself! One that in reality you have no idea is there or not. It makes sense to YOU that you feel threatened yet you deny the very same logic to me. You have been taught to be an elitist. You are trained that your safety takes precedence over anything else.... Guess what? ME TOO!

I am not going to take a bullet so that YOU can feel safer. I am not going to submit my safety as purchase price for yours. I understand that you are at risk to be killed in your job. Sorry that. I understand that you interact with all kinds of riff-raff, But that's not who I am. This is a problem. You want to be safe and I want you to be safe. Unfortunately, or not, I have a right to be free of the threat of your gun. It's no threat you say. Then why have you drawn it in preparation of speaking to me? Just trust me, you say. Now let us trade places. all at once this conversation sounds very stupid. You aren't going to risk my shooting you, I could be a criminal. I should not feel the same trepidation because you are a reasonable man. Being a policeman proves this. But to me, in my very real experience, the biggest felons I have ever met were cops!

Ok look. I believe that things are a bit different today. The chance that a cop is a thug is not large. Technology further decreases the chances of a thug cop continuing with impunity. The second to the last thing I want is for you to get shot. Nevertheless I am uncomfortable with you needing to make the decision NOT TO KILL ME. I would be more comfortable if you had to access a threat and THEN decide to kill me. How do we resolve this? I don't know...... Perhaps always two officers? With their guns in their holsters. That's very expensive. Maybe the Sheriff making less that $300,000 + as salary and compensation? that's still not enough savings. Heck, I am not the city planer.

And besides, All I wanted to know was if we were going back to the days of my youth or was the thing I saw a rare even if necessary event.

 

[X piller X]

One cannot say what another is thinking. Just because an uncorrupt, good intention leo has a gun drawn and hidden for his safety, does not make him a bad person.

The same goes for a good intention citizen of a traffic stop.

You only know for certain what your intentions and capabilities are. The rest is undetermined. Why take chances??? I'm not a leo, but in this case, a leo is leaving the safety of his vehicle, to approach someone else in the safety of their lair, where something could much more easily be hidden for his demise.

The fact is, the leo didn't conceive the idea of murder by upholstering his weapon. If you were in the shoes of the officer, would you roll the dice on your life traffic stop after traffic stop in the neighborhood at that hour????

IDK what the average stops a night is, but i imagine after so long you are playing with borrowed time before the situation arises that you better be safe than sorry


My girlfriend lives in the area as well as my brother, if I am every pulled over at that hour, and the leo comes to my vehicle with his weapon drawn, I will not think twice to the reason, I will simply comply and acknowledge the fact that his life is not worth his job

 

[T755]

Threat huh. "poisoned by a cops dope" high drama indeed.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Threat huh. "poisoned by a cops dope" high drama indeed.

AH-HA! Yes... Aint that SOOOO funny! Yess, My dead buddy..... I LOVE that joke!

For the first time ever I will check out the Ignore feature. I never want to see another post from n00b T755........ My childhood friend is murdered by a police officer with horse cut with strychnine. We just gotts ta get more "drama" like this!

You only have 22 posts since 2008 and you invest one of them to ridicule a long dead teenager? 'Way to stay classy dude.

By the way, A quick look at the net, and I do mean QUICK, brings these gems up from back in the day. (somebody did ask!)

Michael Taylor: The recent police encounters have exacerbated tensions between the African-American community and the predominantly white police force stemming from earlier cases that were not resolved to the community's satisfaction. In one, sixteen-year-old Michael Taylor was shot in the head while he was handcuffed with his hands behind his back in a police patrol car in September 1987; the police and a coroner contended that it was a suicide.15 Nonetheless, in a civillawsuit a jury awarded Taylor's family approximately $3 million dollars; as of September 1997, the city was appealing the case.16 After the jury found against the city, the Justice Department said that it would reconsider the case. Because the explanation provided by the police seemed so absurd, many African-Americans were outraged and cited it as an example of impunity, even ten years later.
The case of Leonard R. Barnett: When a white police officer fatally shot an unarmed African-American robbery suspect in July 1990 and then was awarded the police department's medal of valor for his handling of the robbery suspect, some minority residents expressed outrage that the police department would display such insensitivity.17 On July 9, 1990, Officer Scott L. Haslar shot and killed Leonard R. Barnett after a long car chase that ended in a crash.18 Barnett's leg reportedly was broken during the crash, yet Officer Haslar claimed Barnett moved quickly from the crashed car and then returned to it, Haslar said he believed, to get a gun; Barnett was then shot, and no gun was found.19 Haslar was later promoted to sergeant A federal grand jury that examined the case declined to indict Haslar.20
The case of Edmund Powell: In an incident that led to one of the largest civil jury awards against the police department, Officer Wayne Sharp, white, shot andkilled Edmund Powell, black in June 1991.21 Powell had allegedly stolen something from a department store, and Sharp chased him into an alley with his gun drawn. Sharp, a veteran officer, claimed the shooting was accidental and that Powell had swung a nail-studded board at him, but according to at least one witness, Powell was lying on the pavement when Sharp shot him at close range.22
The Marion County prosecutor brought the case before a grand jury, which declined to indict Sharp.23 Community activists claimed the shooting was racially motivated, based on Sharp's personal history; Sharp had killed an African-American burglary suspect ten years earlier and was cleared by a grand jury.24 At that time, Sharp had been removed from street duty because of his alleged "flirtation" with the National Socialist White People's Party, a neo-Nazi group.25
Powell's grandmother, Gertrude Jackson, alleged Sharp intentionally shot
Powell, and filed a civil lawsuit in 1992; the jury found in favor of Jackson and awarded $465,000 to Powell's family.26 After the award, the chief litigator for the city, Mary Ann Oldham, stated, "Obviously, we are disappointed by the verdict....Officer Sharp did not do anything wrong;"27 the city was considering anappeal.28 Jackson's attorney asked that Sharp be ordered to pay $50 each week from his paycheck "to make him think about it."29 According to a public affairs officer with the police department, Sharp was neither disciplined nor retrained following the Powell shooting.30 In January 1998, in response to a written question posed about Officer Sharp, Police Chief Michael Zunk replied that Sharp had been thoroughly investigated and was subsequently returned to street duty as a detective. According to Chief Zunk, Sharp "has received high accolades and several awards for superior work."31
Fatal shooting: On March 24, 1992, a narcotics officer shot a drug suspect in the head, killing him.32 Working undercover, the officer had just completed a drug buy and started to arrest the suspect and his friend. The officer claims that the suspect reached for his waistband and a gun, so the officer shot him once in the head. According to an attorney for the victim's family in a civil lawsuit, the officer's gun went off accidentally (and the story about the suspect reaching for a gun was made up later to cover the error). Key evidence about the incident was lost when another officer allegedly erased part of an audiotape made during the encounter that, according to the victim's attorney, reportedly recorded the narcotics officer apologizing to the victim's friend for the accidental shooting.33 A Marion County grand jury declined to indict the officer on criminal charges in 1993. The officer who allegedly erased the tape was suspended for thirty days, but was not charged with obstruction of justice because he had limited immunity for testifyingbefore the grand jury in the shooting officer's case. As of late 1997, both officers were sergeants on the force.34

 

[dansgotguns]

......wow.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Good stuff right here fwiw -> Indianapolis Metro, Beech Grove, Lawrence, and Speedway Police

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A hidden handgun is indication that the decision to kill me has already been made. You are approaching MY car ALREADY with the resolution to take my life.

So, the cop shot the guy in your original post? Did he fail in his resolution, or was that never his intent to begin with? No BECAUSE THE INTENT WAS DEFENSIVE IN NATURE FROM THE START.

No one doubts there are some corrupt cops. No one doubts some cops have made mistakes. However nothing in your post has yet shown me the threat of a cop with a drawn gun hidden being any greater threat than one with a holstered gun. If I wanted to murder you, you think I'd just walk up with my gun out and put one in you? I haven't put much thought into it, but I'm sure that's the stupidest way to be a corrupt murdering cop.

The only thing frustrating me is your irrationality about the whole matter could end up getting you or a cop killed, and I don't like either result. If your goal actually is to go home, and not engage in being "macho" as you referred to it earlier, and understand that there is no threat level difference between "gun hidden" and "gun holstered" and that the cop is in charge of the traffic stop, then change your programming. If not, then change your stated goal, as doing things like refusing to stop and having a handgun under your thing decrease your chance of going home.

 

[Darral27]

IMO if a cop feels so threatened when approaching my car that he feels the need to unholster his gun he should wait for back up. I would prefer his being nervous, scared, or whatever not end my life. We have all see the videos of people being shot holding a cane or reaching for their wallet. Having your gun in hand does make your reaction time faster, it also takes away that extra second to realize your target may not be a threat.

 

[KG1]

Sounds to me that the OP had a flashback to another place and time and is looking to rehash the events of that era when he observed the officer as described in the OP.

 

[ticktwrter]

I haven't made a judgment against what I saw last night, yet. I did recognize that he was making every effort to hide that he was prepared to wail lead. It was my impression that he was not acting in an intimidating manner, from the drivers perspective at least. I appreciate his consideration for the driver, really. The thought just struck me that it was very possible that I have been under the gun without my knowledge before too. This makes me very uncomfortable. I wonder how common it is. A few people admitted that they do this occasionally, Occasionally is more acceptable to me than always.

I DO have an opinion on approaching me with the hand right on the weapon. I am threatened at this point. It makes me think about my gun right when that thought is the last kind of thinking the officer wants from me. I demand everything an officer demands, such as respect, a civil tone AND to go home tonight. These standards are not just the purview of the police but MY right as well. When an officer demands "Officer Safety" but does it at the expense of MY SAFETY...... That's not going to work for me. I am not alone feeling like this. It is not safe, or in the interest of public safety in general. If I got testy it was on this subject.

My "paranoia" was learned under sheriff McAtee. BehindBlueEyes, you gave a list of "When was the last time" questions. The answer to those questions is "When (ever) a McAtee was in charge.

I HAVE been a victim of McAtee's Gestapo in the past. I know that was a long time ago. It is the experience from that time that ALL of you officers are being painted with even today by very many Indy citizens my age and older. The sins of the fathers falling on the sons, as it were. I suppose that this is extremely unfair. Sorry. I remember when NOT running from the police was a fatal decision. Back then you never stopped unless there were witnesses.

Mayor Ballard ran on the platform (among others) of cleaning out the rat's nest that was the Indy police presence, and has done very well. I saw a thing that was reminiscent of my youth and wondered if we were doing that again, and just when I was thinking that things seem different than before. I thought I would ask about it. Of course the typical macho us vs the turds has to make its appearance..... maybe things are not as different as I was thinking it was after all. That's all I wanted to know

Well, I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander. It sounds like your "paranoia" is because of what may have happened to you in the past and as you put it "the sins of the fathers falling in the sons." I guess I can also say my "paranoia" is also from the sins of the bad guys who killed other officers on traffic stops. I guess when I am cautious it is a result of seeing my friends in coffins for just doing their jobs. I guess if it is OK for you to paint all officers because of the actions of the few it is OK for me to do that as well for those who have murdered officers.

I also want you to go home at the end of your day but I have been tasked as a police officer to enforce all laws and that includes traffic violations. One of the biggest complaints we get at neighborhood meetings is traffic related.