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Jury refuses to convict in Bundy ranch standoff
- Thread starter myhightechsec
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In this situation, they are actual Rules. Not guidelines (although there are notes that accompany the Rules). Well, there's some Code mixed in, but it is certainly not guideline-type Code. Actual statutes. Laws. Laws and Rules.
For as long as we can keep it that way.
For as long as we can keep it that way.
I'm old, nothing keeps me up at night anymore.
Except your prostate, right?
I agree. Was very happy to hear the outcome. Not at all the way I thought it was going to go either, but very happy that it didn't. I thought the court would try to make them all out as a bunch of redneck fanatics. I never felt that way. My brother, an attorney, and I got into a rather lively debate on this one. I can't wait to call him and tell him that he owes me a beer! Not often that I get to tell an attorney (especially my brother) that he was wrong in an argument about a court case!! In fact, he's my older brother and it's been that way most of our lives. I'm really going to enjoy that beer!
So when can we expect them to start rounding up BLM officials and levying charges?
BLM investigator alleges misconduct by feds in Bundy ranch standoff | OregonLive.com
BLM investigator alleges misconduct by feds in Bundy ranch standoff | OregonLive.com
IMO the BLM made this bed when they decided to make an example of a guy they didn't like and couldn't help but bring in the obligatory sniper support for their cowboy game. The DOJ apparently couldn't find a way to play it honestly. I HATE prosecutors who don't play straight.
On the wildlife refuge trial, it appeared the fed love affair with charging conspiracy, rather than criminal acts, finally came around to bite them. Wasn't even jury nullification.
On the bright side, there is only one dead guy which is a dramatic improvement over Ruby Ridge and Waco. Of course though, the Feds started out that one with a now charged lie about who was shooting first...
The same time Lon Horiuchi gets what he has coming.
On the wildlife refuge trial, it appeared the fed love affair with charging conspiracy, rather than criminal acts, finally came around to bite them. Wasn't even jury nullification.
On the bright side, there is only one dead guy which is a dramatic improvement over Ruby Ridge and Waco. Of course though, the Feds started out that one with a now charged lie about who was shooting first...
The same time Lon Horiuchi gets what he has coming.
Last edited:
Spear Dane
Grandmaster
Man ain't that the truth. About half those puppies need adjoining cells with the Fed LEO's that screwed the pooch in this fiasco. But it won't happen. At worst there will be some early retirements, maybe a reassignment to Nome, AK.
Copied this from a cattle forum I’m on, it’s The perspective from someone that actually deals with the BLM and grazes public land. Very good insight
I will try and explain the best I can my thoughts. Bundy owns a "preference" to graze public ground. He did not own the ground. In the late 1800's Bundy's family homesteaded that area, they ran on that ground up into the 30's when the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 established the United States Grazing Service. Then in a few years that became the BLM. With this "preference" he has the right to graze under the direction of the BLM. He has to pay grazing fees that are set by a formula that indexes off the price of land, fuel, cattle, etc. He also has to pay maintenance costs for range improvements, herding of cattle, all death loss, theft of cattle.
But he does not have title to the land, it is owned by the public to be managed by the BLM, with direction from Fish and Game, sportsmen's, cattlemen, and the concerned public if they so deem to give their input in management. However he can borrow against this "preference" at the bank, he can sell it out right to any person a rancher or environmental group and they can choose to retire or take non use of those grazing lands. If they go into non use for extended amount of time, BLM at their discretion can retire those permits. Preference and permits are basically the same thing. But at the end of the day you basically have nothing as the BLM can take them away, reduce, or expand your preference . But to do that would take studies, meetings, public input. Then after reviewing all sides the BLM can take action. You can appeal, fight, go to court over it. Maybe you will win maybe you will lose.
So the number one thing that came out of this trial is the gross mismanagement of some lands, the power that has been given to BLM in the way of law enforcement that needs to be taken away from them. They don't need cops! You have the local sheriff, he is the land of the land. This all started out with takings of Bundy's grazing permits for the Desert Tortoise. Maybe they used the Desert Tortoise to do a land grab for other motives, it don't know because I wasn't there. However it was a farce in my mind because the Tortoise flourishes with and co-exists with cattle very nicely. They eat cattle dung. So right there you can see it was a land grab.
So put all this aside for right now, where to we go from here? BLM can try to go after him on other charges, if they want to try and drum some up. I well tell you right now the BLM and Forest Service use the DOJ Dept. of Justice for attorneys. They are the third string attorneys that can't be hired at top law firms. So I'm thinking they are stupid enough to try and make a second run at him.
When Bundy failed to remove cattle per BLM's order, BLM should have just got a judgment against him in the state of Nevada for failure to pay fines and put a lien on his cattle. Then when he sold cattle they could have collected the fees, fines to pay. However the solicitor and the director of BLM of Nevada were fools in how they handled the mess. They tried to use force. That was wrong in my opinion. Bringing snipers in and cowboys to gather his cattle was a mistake. Never needed to come to that. All it did was fuel Bundy's case.
So now the BLM has a real mess on their hands. Cattle are still there, grazing fees not paid, so called fines not paid. What are they going to do? Will this cause all grazing permits holders to refuse to pay? To never remove cattle when both parties agreed in grazing management plans? I can't agree with what Bundy did, I realize he fought it the way he felt best. I don't agree. If I helped fund or support him what does that say about me when I pay my grazing fees and try to live by my management plan?
I won't lie, Bundy bringing this all to light has gotten the needed press to show the gross over reach of the federal government that needs to end. But at what costs? It cost a man's life. You cant' bring that back. I didn't ask him to be a martyr for the cause. This wouldn't have gotten this amount of press without a man dying. I will tell you this they are men that stand by their convictions. They are proud men, I can't take that from them. I will stand and applaud them for standing for their beliefs. Who am I to say their beliefs are wrong or right.
So my thoughts are the BLM needs to do a new management plan for Bundy's allotment, figure cattle in and also the Tortoise in. Permit his cattle to graze a season everybody can live with. Dismiss fines, have him pay back grazing fees. Bundy tired to pay grazing fees but BLM wouldn't accept them, he then tried to get the State of Nevada to hold them. But they returned the money to Bundy because they didn't want to get involved. BLM needs to keep this low keyed or it will blow up in their faces. I just don't have much faith in the DOJ and the BLM to be smart enough to do the right thing. Remember when I talked about third string attorneys.
I have some good friends in the BLM, however there is a lot of people employed there that I feel need to be removed from their jobs. We need the BLM to administer these lands for multiple uses, that means oil, gas, mining, cattle, recreation, hunting. It is not to be locked up! The BLM was put in place to expedite the use and promotion of these lands, not to lock them up. Sadly that is what as happened in the last 25 years.
I will tell you this is a subject that isn't taken lightly. In fact I don't think it has ever been talked about much at the coffee table in my circles. Because for the simple fact which side do you take? There has been wrongs on both sides, but never enough to have taken a man's life over. This subject troubles me, even to type what I have tonight and before on this subject.
Where do we go from here? I would sure like to see people's thoughts on how to handle it from here on out.
I will try and explain the best I can my thoughts. Bundy owns a "preference" to graze public ground. He did not own the ground. In the late 1800's Bundy's family homesteaded that area, they ran on that ground up into the 30's when the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 established the United States Grazing Service. Then in a few years that became the BLM. With this "preference" he has the right to graze under the direction of the BLM. He has to pay grazing fees that are set by a formula that indexes off the price of land, fuel, cattle, etc. He also has to pay maintenance costs for range improvements, herding of cattle, all death loss, theft of cattle.
But he does not have title to the land, it is owned by the public to be managed by the BLM, with direction from Fish and Game, sportsmen's, cattlemen, and the concerned public if they so deem to give their input in management. However he can borrow against this "preference" at the bank, he can sell it out right to any person a rancher or environmental group and they can choose to retire or take non use of those grazing lands. If they go into non use for extended amount of time, BLM at their discretion can retire those permits. Preference and permits are basically the same thing. But at the end of the day you basically have nothing as the BLM can take them away, reduce, or expand your preference . But to do that would take studies, meetings, public input. Then after reviewing all sides the BLM can take action. You can appeal, fight, go to court over it. Maybe you will win maybe you will lose.
So the number one thing that came out of this trial is the gross mismanagement of some lands, the power that has been given to BLM in the way of law enforcement that needs to be taken away from them. They don't need cops! You have the local sheriff, he is the land of the land. This all started out with takings of Bundy's grazing permits for the Desert Tortoise. Maybe they used the Desert Tortoise to do a land grab for other motives, it don't know because I wasn't there. However it was a farce in my mind because the Tortoise flourishes with and co-exists with cattle very nicely. They eat cattle dung. So right there you can see it was a land grab.
So put all this aside for right now, where to we go from here? BLM can try to go after him on other charges, if they want to try and drum some up. I well tell you right now the BLM and Forest Service use the DOJ Dept. of Justice for attorneys. They are the third string attorneys that can't be hired at top law firms. So I'm thinking they are stupid enough to try and make a second run at him.
When Bundy failed to remove cattle per BLM's order, BLM should have just got a judgment against him in the state of Nevada for failure to pay fines and put a lien on his cattle. Then when he sold cattle they could have collected the fees, fines to pay. However the solicitor and the director of BLM of Nevada were fools in how they handled the mess. They tried to use force. That was wrong in my opinion. Bringing snipers in and cowboys to gather his cattle was a mistake. Never needed to come to that. All it did was fuel Bundy's case.
So now the BLM has a real mess on their hands. Cattle are still there, grazing fees not paid, so called fines not paid. What are they going to do? Will this cause all grazing permits holders to refuse to pay? To never remove cattle when both parties agreed in grazing management plans? I can't agree with what Bundy did, I realize he fought it the way he felt best. I don't agree. If I helped fund or support him what does that say about me when I pay my grazing fees and try to live by my management plan?
I won't lie, Bundy bringing this all to light has gotten the needed press to show the gross over reach of the federal government that needs to end. But at what costs? It cost a man's life. You cant' bring that back. I didn't ask him to be a martyr for the cause. This wouldn't have gotten this amount of press without a man dying. I will tell you this they are men that stand by their convictions. They are proud men, I can't take that from them. I will stand and applaud them for standing for their beliefs. Who am I to say their beliefs are wrong or right.
So my thoughts are the BLM needs to do a new management plan for Bundy's allotment, figure cattle in and also the Tortoise in. Permit his cattle to graze a season everybody can live with. Dismiss fines, have him pay back grazing fees. Bundy tired to pay grazing fees but BLM wouldn't accept them, he then tried to get the State of Nevada to hold them. But they returned the money to Bundy because they didn't want to get involved. BLM needs to keep this low keyed or it will blow up in their faces. I just don't have much faith in the DOJ and the BLM to be smart enough to do the right thing. Remember when I talked about third string attorneys.
I have some good friends in the BLM, however there is a lot of people employed there that I feel need to be removed from their jobs. We need the BLM to administer these lands for multiple uses, that means oil, gas, mining, cattle, recreation, hunting. It is not to be locked up! The BLM was put in place to expedite the use and promotion of these lands, not to lock them up. Sadly that is what as happened in the last 25 years.
I will tell you this is a subject that isn't taken lightly. In fact I don't think it has ever been talked about much at the coffee table in my circles. Because for the simple fact which side do you take? There has been wrongs on both sides, but never enough to have taken a man's life over. This subject troubles me, even to type what I have tonight and before on this subject.
Where do we go from here? I would sure like to see people's thoughts on how to handle it from here on out.
That is a good read.
It is just more of the same with big brother expanding its hold over us.
It is just more of the same with big brother expanding its hold over us.
Man what I would like to say here.
Kinda funny, from what I’ve gathered the bad place to be reassigned to in the BLM is Nevada. Which caused this mess to begin with.
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