Just took this course this weekend. Video

[Chaz]

Hey folks,
Thought I would post this video of a pistol course I took this weekend. It was great!!! The instructors have experince in Law Enforcement, SWAT, Canadian Military, Marines and Black Water Training.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLu0uqFMVag"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLu0uqFMVag[/ame]

It was with Red Dot Tactical and the instructors did a very nice job with us. It was fun but in many ways brought me back to my days in the Military.
Enjoy the video and keep them in mind for future training.

BTW, this was my 3rd course with them.

 

[rhino]

Just a question: why were there so many people without any eye protection in the video?

 

[HICKMAN]

mmm, love lookin down the barrel of guns

If they're not gonna wear eye protection, just man on up and leave off the hearing protection as well. That'd be fun in the car.

 

[fireblade]

Lol ......A lot of training platforms have been PC to much by legality of the civilian world .......as i clearly understand the use of eye protection in a lot training it should be used ...... but real reality simulation training is something diffent.....98% of military weapons training with bullet firing weapon platforms ....they do not use safety glasses in high level simulation training ......at one point the military started the program and discovered it created more problem then it solved in high level simulation training . Again i for one am glad to see some training giving to civilians in a real life simulation scenario ......there something to be said for train as you would fight....nice video thx for sharing it

 

[jdhaines]

SNIP there something to be said for train as you would fight....nice video thx for sharing it

Also something to be said for keeping yourself reasonably safe while you train so you can continue to train. If you lose an eye "in the fight" then **** happens and hopefully you'll be alive to ***** about it. If you lose an eye in training due to the steel, barrels, glass, bullets, guns near your face, etc then where are you?

I have some thoughts on the video but it's so easy to take things out of context. I'll just say that it looked like you all had fun.

 

[the1kidd03]

Lol ......A lot of training platforms have been PC to much by legality of the civilian world .......as i clearly understand the use of eye protection in a lot training it should be used ...... but real reality simulation training is something diffent.....98% of military weapons training with bullet firing weapon platforms ....they do not use safety glasses in high level simulation training ......at one point the military started the program and discovered it created more problem then it solved in high level simulation training . Again i for one am glad to see some training giving to civilians in a real life simulation scenario ......there something to be said for train as you would fight....nice video thx for sharing it

agreed, while safety is important the truth is should you ever need your skills in a real time situation you are not going to have ear and eye pro.....most of the training I do/have done in the military would be perceived as "dangerous" in the eyes of the civilian community and instructors....but I feel that it adds a level of realism to training that is already difficult to acheive ...this is also why we train at private property to avoid any "scrutiny" in the form of safety lectures from people who may wish to have a simple day of paper punching....but anyhow, it's difficult to enduce the "censory overload" effect in a training environment, whereby your mind blocks out certain aspects of the environment around you when in high adrenaline situations....and so I think that if a shooter chooses not to use PPE in training to become more accustomed to the feel and try to better simulate a real situation, then that is their choice...so long as the instructor always RECOMMENDS its use......I try to use ear pro most of the time, simply because I have very sharpened/sensitive senses, particularly hearing..but that's me

 

[bwframe]

I'm thinkin' you military guys prolly got it right. Eye pro likely won't matter a bit to the camera man and all the rest of the poor bastards spending so much time downrange of all those muzzles. Eye pro ain't much for stopping bullets.

 

[cedartop]

Was this an open enrollment class? If so, were there any prereq's?

 

[fireblade]

I'm thinkin' you military guys prolly got it right. Eye pro likely won't matter a bit to the camera man and all the rest of the poor bastards spending so much time downrange of all those muzzles. Eye pro ain't much for stopping bullets.

(again op thanks for video glad you had a good time with the training).........Here my eye protection to stop bullets ......

 

[Glock21]

Shooting without eye protection on to "simulate reality" is just about the stupidest thing I've ever read, and I don't care who wants to argue about it. There is probably not an Instructor in the world who does more "real life" training than Henk Iverson does, and eye protection is manditory on his range - even when he trains SF.

Others may do as they will, but NO student or observer will ever be allowed on my range without eye and ear protection - the end.

Frank Sharpe
Fortress Defense Consultants

 

[the1kidd03]

like I said...."dangerous"

 

[fireblade]

Shooting without eye protection on to "simulate reality" is just about the stupidest thing I've ever read, and I don't care who wants to argue about it. There is probably not an Instructor in the world who does more "real life" training than Henk Iverson does, and eye protection is manditory on his range - even when he trains SF.

Others may do as they will, but NO student or observer will ever be allowed on my range without eye and ear protection - the end.

Frank Sharpe
Fortress Defense Consultants

So are you going me stupid ??? i don't care how you do your civilian ranges lets get some thing straight right now i am a operator and have trained alot of troops in special fields .....even troops in basic training at a qualifying range do not wear safety glasses .....in the civilian world working with civilian ok.............. but i would tread lightly sir on calling people who out side of the civilian world who don't use safety glasses in "simulate reality" training stupid training...

 

[ZX Gun]

Amen, Frank.



(Ryan)

 

[the1kidd03]

So are you going me stupid ??? i don't care how you do your civilian ranges lets get some thing straight right now i am a operator and have trained alot of troops in special fields .....even troops in basic training at a qualifying range do not wear safety glasses .....in the civilian world working with civilian ok.............. but i would tread lightly sir on calling people who out side of the civilian world who don't use safety glasses in "simulate reality" training stupid training...

I don't know if all of this should be in purple or not...just seemed funny but anyhow

I will agree to some extent....in the military we understand that those we train with have the same level of proficiency with their weapon as the rest of us...and it's not a matter of "we have a choice".....it's more of a do it or die mentality, or the idea of "train HARD and realistic so that real combat seems easy and you have a better idea of what to expect"...I think that civilian training in this context should be more important to instructors......in the civilian world these are somewhat different factors.....for one thing, the civilian instructor must be cautious because he can easily be held liable for what happens in his classes..and must address issues of such a nature as they see fit (ie ear/eye pro)...also must take precautions as to WHAT they teach because it could result in a student gaining a "big head" and getting themselves killed one day....I think that even in the civilian training world, realism should be highly sought after and not so often replaced for safety...I understand why it is, but I don't necessarily agree with it.....the realism of training where you feel the percussion of your team mates' rounds making your sleeves flutter induces a physiological change in your body that replicates that of a real encounter better than any other method of training (aside from actually getting shot/at) and thus is better training in that it better prepares them for what they are likely to encounter/feel....and in the civilian world, they aim to NOT be in such a situation..and so the "need" for such training is outweighed in the interest of safety

on that note, I do not agree with the idea of civilian instructors pointing out how much "military" training they've done....for one thing, you can't verify WHO they've trained and for all anyone knows they could have trained a SF guy who retired 10 years ago....after all he was "SF"....doesn't mean he was at the time of his training....and it doesn't mean that the unit/military saw value in the curriculum...it could also have been a soldier who was seeking additional training in his "off" time because he is a fellow "gun-nut"....in which case he could easily SAY he was whatever he chooses to make up and a civilian instructor has no way to verify....any of these slight elements of truth is really all the validation some need to claim "teaching military"...my point is, that such a statement doesn't give an instructor any additional "credibility" IMO......as of all the military experience I have, and friends I have in numerous units....I've heard of VERY little if ANY training performed by civilian instructors and saw NONE in the Corps across infantry, spec-ops, or MSOR...same thing from a couple SEALs I know in Cali...and in my experience the Army handles all of their training "in house" as well with the relatively "massive" budget they get...there was some training with British Royal Marines and SAS...but that's as far as I've heard of any training (as of in recent times) that is outside of their own organizations' training curriculum

 

[Glock21]

So are you going me stupid ??? i don't care how you do your civilian ranges lets get some thing straight right now i am a operator and have trained alot of troops in special fields .....even troops in basic training at a qualifying range do not wear safety glasses .....in the civilian world working with civilian ok.............. but i would tread lightly sir on calling people who out side of the civilian world who don't use safety glasses in "simulate reality" training stupid training...

Not wearing safety glasses when shooting is stupid. Military, or not. And when the military catches up with the rest of us when it comes to "rifle training", then perhaps I'll take the suggestion that I should pattern my training after theirs seriously. With the exception of some very small amounts of Special Forces (and those are taught by private contractors such as Henk Iverson), military firearms training, in general, sucks, and it's not anything I would hold up as "state-of-the-art" or pattern my training around at this point in time.

Grunts are rarely given a choice about a whole lot when it comes to anything they may, or may not do, during training. Those in charge of making such choices, however, are most likely not the least bit concerned about anyone's eyes or hearing - I would bet their main concern is their next promotion. And besides, "They made it through training with both their eyes, so it must be OK!"

The military doesn't wear safety glasses for the same reason our military still uses a 60-year-old rifle design, and it's the same reason the Pentagon can "misplace" $2-trillion and not be held accountable, and it's the same reason the first budgets usually cut are the VA hospitals. They don't give a s##t.

 

[Shay]

How does wearing clear eye pro somehow make the experience less real?

It's tough to judge without being there or at least having a good understanding of the context but I saw several things in that video that I would never tolerate on a range (or anywhere else for that matter). The irony of saying that is that my stance on some very controversial training methods is fairly well known.

 

[esrice]

A guy in his late twenties maneuvers around a course of fire with his carbine. As he engages a target to his right he falls in behind cover. Popping out from cover his carbine barrel doesn't clear the cement block wall in front of him. He pulls the trigger and a cloud of cement fragments explodes in his face.

Is this guy a civilian or a soldier?

How can you tell the difference?

 

[rhino]

Shooting without eye protection on to "simulate reality" is just about the stupidest thing I've ever read, and I don't care who wants to argue about it. There is probably not an Instructor in the world who does more "real life" training than Henk Iverson does, and eye protection is manditory on his range - even when he trains SF.

Others may do as they will, but NO student or observer will ever be allowed on my range without eye and ear protection - the end.

Frank Sharpe
Fortress Defense Consultants

Agreed 100%.

So are you going me stupid ??? i don't care how you do your civilian ranges lets get some thing straight right now i am a operator and have trained alot of troops in special fields .....even troops in basic training at a qualifying range do not wear safety glasses .....in the civilian world working with civilian ok.............. but i would tread lightly sir on calling people who out side of the civilian world who don't use safety glasses in "simulate reality" training stupid training...

Good for you. Lots of genuine "operators" disagree with you. The example Frank cited was Henk Iverson. If you're an operator, you should know him by his reputation within that community. He requires eye protection on his range.

Back to the topic at hand, I find it unlikely that the training depicted in the video was exclusive to "operators." Finding a rational, compelling reason to forego eye protection in a class like that, especially when shooting around vehicles, is going to be difficult task. Whether or not "real operators" choose to wear eye protection or not really doesn't make the case.

Perhaps the naysayers have never been hit in the face with debris, secondary projectiles, or a variety of other things. I have. My glasses have the scratches and chips to prove it. I'm not training/practicing/learning without my eye protection, nor will I allow my students or anyone who is my responsibility. There are a multitude of reasons for wearing it & requiring it and the few that attempt to justify not doing so are weak.

 

[MangoTango]

There was a tactical medic who was killed when a sim round went into his eye in 2001. In most situations I am more likely to have some kind of eye protection AKA sunglasses. So it is more realistic that I do not have the crystal clear perspective of no glasses. Ear protection never but train for even one entire day with hearing protection and good luck with herong someone sneak up on you in the future.

 

[HICKMAN]

So are you going me stupid ??? i don't care how you do your civilian ranges lets get some thing straight right now i am a operator and have trained alot of troops in special fields .....even troops in basic training at a qualifying range do not wear safety glasses .....in the civilian world working with civilian ok.............. but i would tread lightly sir on calling people who out side of the civilian world who don't use safety glasses in "simulate reality" training stupid training...

Hmm, hate to argue with you but my son's in BCT (graduates next week) and they are ALL issued eye protection with both clear and tinted lenses, and those who need glasses have prescription inserts. They were them for ALL training activities.

As far as what operator's use, I have a co-worker who who just went from active to reserve and will get his opinion on the subject in the morning.

Either way, there is a difference in training and combat. Eye/ear protection in training is just common sense, you gain NOTHING by not using them.

Sure, we won't have them should we have to draw in a "situation", but of the few thousand rounds I put downrange in competition or training this year, my eyes/ears will be protected.