Just wondering....

[BehindBlueI's]

So...interesting responses. Seems people are afraid of posting negative/honest reviews. I wonder why? If you have put out hundreds of bucks for a class and it sucks, why not post an honest review?

Most of the reviews posted here and anywhere where are nothing but praise, and that's great...if it is true.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17441-AAR-Sand-Burr-Gun-Ranch-quot-Snubbie-class

That's honest. Positive and negative. Some classes have been better then others, but none have been a negative experience.

Now, most classes in the price range you are asking about are from nationally recognized instructors with a long track record and a well-honed and consistently presented class. As such, they are a known product that's easily researched. The more unknown and difficult to research classes aren't in that price range. Simply put, a start-up local instructor isn't likely to command $300-$1k for a class when you can attend a Massad Ayoob, Travis Haley, Ernest Langdon, etc. class for the same coin.

I would assume most folks dropping that kind of money and time have bothered to research the instructor and class a bit so they know it's something they want to do. If you don't like what Travis Haley teaches or who he is, you're not going to pay hundreds of dollars to train with him. That alone is going to cut down on negative experiences. You know what you're going to get ahead of time, as opposed to going to an unknown instructor.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Interesting conversation!

Of those that gave "negative" reviews still would recommend the class.

A couple of things.

The more classes I take the less I learn from each. There is quite a bit of overlapping from everyone. My days of being blown away by a class are likely over.

Inaccurate course descriptions are generally the source of most complaints (including here).

 

[cosermann]

. . Inaccurate course descriptions are generally the source of most complaints ...

I hate that. Last class I took did not cover something that was specifically listed in the course description, and was the primary reason I took the class. Not the only reason, but the main factor. Had I known that skill would not be covered, I would not have taken the class.

It was still a decent class. Learned some a few things. Not a complete waste of time. Got my pic taken with a nationally known dude. But, it was disappointing, and not worth MY time, knowing what I already know, without the missing material.

However, for a different individual, with a different knowledge base, that same class could have been a good value for them.

 

[devildog70]

What I've learned from going to a lot of classes - there are things I thought I knew/understood that have been covered by most classes. And then, all of a sudden, somebody will explain the exact same technique/procedure as a dozen guys before him. He'll just use language that actually clicks with me. I don't have those moments often, but when I do, it is well worth the price of admission.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The more classes I take the less I learn from each. There is quite a bit of overlapping from everyone. My days of being blown away by a class are likely over.

Branch out. Take a body language/pre-attack indicator course. Take a courtroom survival course. Take an EMT class. Take ECQC or sign up for a BJJ class. There's always something new to learn.

Within disciplines you've studied a lot though, yes, you're going to get less and less return on investment. Sort of like building a drag car. It's easier to go faster at first, but the faster you get the harder it is to keep improving. Tough to say when you're as good as you want to be.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What I've learned from going to a lot of classes - there are things I thought I knew/understood that have been covered by most classes. And then, all of a sudden, somebody will explain the exact same technique/procedure as a dozen guys before him. He'll just use language that actually clicks with me. I don't have those moments often, but when I do, it is well worth the price of admission.

I've also had things explained to me that I wasn't ready to learn yet. The skill or task was simply too advanced for where I was at the time, I couldn't execute it correctly, and either assumed it wasn't for me then forgot about it.

The last class I took was Massad Ayoob's Mag-40. Mas makes you shoot from several stances during different parts of the class. You have to shoot Weaver, Isosceles, and Chapman. I know all the stances, I know Weaver is outdated, and I know I shoot Weaver worse on timed qualifications. Mas knows Weaver is outdated and not the best choice for most shooters. Why learn it and practice it? Mas: How are you going to shoot if you are seat belted in your car? Can you shoot Chapman or Isosceles toward your window? Over your shoulder? Then it clicked for me why I should occasionally shoot Weaver to practice it and have it as an option. What I didn't know is it's easier on arthritic joints as well, which isn't a concern for me today but probably will be at some point. While a lot of the class was things I knew, little nuggets like that make it work the time to continue to attend training.

Takeaway: I'd never really been coached on Weaver and while it's still my weakest stance, I'm better at it and have an understanding of the use of it. Before I'd just written it off as irrelevant to me.

 

[rhino]

I have completed a significant number of classes that are focused on behavior of violent criminals and how to manage the threats they pose. The most recent had a tidbit about statistics from reports of shooting incidents that almost made my head explode when I processed it. It was a tiny thing, but something I had never thought to question or consider beyond what was reported and how it was reported. It also reminded me that I need to ask more questions mentally when I am processing new information or reviewing old information.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Alot of this thread has reminded me of the many courses and surge of new trainers that have exploded in the last lustrum or two. The review thing is not an exact science whether it a business that is trying to get you to improve their livelihood or questions on surveys that are worded improperly for exact results. How does one believe a review when in fact the reviewer is suspect. A case in point from back in the day when there were about 12 of us taking some instruction that we paid dearly for ($150 then). There were two of us from Indiana in that group that made the trip to the Academy. I hung onto every word and put into practice immediately my learning. I got a priceless education in HOW to shoot (didn't say I remembered it all). This class did not go into the defense scenarios as you could not sign up for them until you had this course and proven ability of what you learned and practiced. My buddy complained all the way home from Missouri that the class sucked and the trainer was lame. Turns out, he was less interested in the HOW and wanted more of the scenario/aftermath discussion. For me this was a first hand look at a review and how it unfolded. To each his own. If I were to review this instructor, I would say that he had no patience for anyone there that was expecting a magic wand to make them shoot better or become the Master Tactical Timmy. He certainly was plain spoken and would not tolerate stupidity. You came, you paid and you learned. Simple. This was my first exposure to bulk ammunition requirements as I was used to boxes of ammo instead of buckets and barrels to shoot. So if there was this medium to write a review on this Instructor, mine would have been very positive. A great big thank you to Ray and I hope you are still putting them downrange in Shooters Heaven as here on earth the sweetest memory I have is the many times we spent at the Chapman range.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Branch out. Take a body language/pre-attack indicator course. Take a courtroom survival course. Take an EMT class. Take ECQC or sign up for a BJJ class. There's always something new to learn.

Within disciplines you've studied a lot though, yes, you're going to get less and less return on investment. Sort of like building a drag car. It's easier to go faster at first, but the faster you get the harder it is to keep improving. Tough to say when you're as good as you want to be.

This is fantastic advice, thank you BBI!

I hadn't considered the courtroom class.

The dragster point is excellent. Anymore I take a class from a big name guy and walk out no faster or more accurate. I always have to wonder, would I have been better off shooting $2.5k of ammo (instead of $400 of ammo) than being here for 4 days? The answer anymore is yes because once you can diagnose yourself the gains become less.

Hmmm, maybe an "instructor pathway" thread is in order. I'd love to hear the path others have or are taking.

 

[rhino]

Alot of this thread has reminded me of the many courses and surge of new trainers that have exploded in the last lustrum or two. The review thing is not an exact science whether it a business that is trying to get you to improve their livelihood or questions on surveys that are worded improperly for exact results. How does one believe a review when in fact the reviewer is suspect. A case in point from back in the day when there were about 12 of us taking some instruction that we paid dearly for ($150 then). There were two of us from Indiana in that group that made the trip to the Academy. I hung onto every word and put into practice immediately my learning. I got a priceless education in HOW to shoot (didn't say I remembered it all). This class did not go into the defense scenarios as you could not sign up for them until you had this course and proven ability of what you learned and practiced. My buddy complained all the way home from Missouri that the class sucked and the trainer was lame. Turns out, he was less interested in the HOW and wanted more of the scenario/aftermath discussion. For me this was a first hand look at a review and how it unfolded. To each his own. If I were to review this instructor, I would say that he had no patience for anyone there that was expecting a magic wand to make them shoot better or become the Master Tactical Timmy. He certainly was plain spoken and would not tolerate stupidity. You came, you paid and you learned. Simple. This was my first exposure to bulk ammunition requirements as I was used to boxes of ammo instead of buckets and barrels to shoot. So if there was this medium to write a review on this Instructor, mine would have been very positive. A great big thank you to Ray and I hope you are still putting them downrange in Shooters Heaven as here on earth the sweetest memory I have is the many times we spent at the Chapman range.

You're another one! When I found out some of your AtlantaCC guys were making trips to Chapman Academy years ago, I wanted to know why no one invited me!

 

[maxmayhem]

link? well those people get really butt hurt when you offer criticism so I am sure a lot of people dont say anything. Some commandos can be pretty narcicistic especially those that are not that great.
A friend of mine recommends valor ridge and gets a lot out of the classes

Link?