Karate

[lovemachine]

I took Karate 3 times when I was younger. Trained at Kincaids Karate in Lebanon. My dad practiced there as well, and actually met Herb Johnson, well, not met, but was in the same room as he was...

 

[iChokePeople]

Getting back to the videos ... after seeing the head guy go at it with his students, it's really obvious why they all perform the movements the way they do. They're all mimicking an example who displays poor body mechanics on virtually every technique and movement. I would conjecture that the main instructor learned by similarly mimicking someone else, but never understanding how to actually position and move his own body in order to execute the movements with even rudimentary mastery. That's not uncommon, unfortunately, but it's certainly obvious enough to be noteworthy when you see video evidence.

It's also something I've noticed a lot in point fighters. I think point fighting has a tendency to encourage certain attributes. People who are primarily point fighters tend to favor very quick, "flicky" movements, because that's what is rewarded in their sport. The kinds of body mechanics that would deliver power, along with many other considerations that would be important in MMA or on the street (and yes, there are some differences there, too...) are not necessarily important to a point fighter. The same is true for any of the other sports, including MMA -- an MMA guy would not typically come in and dominate a kata competition without some transition work, as they don't put emphasis on some of the things that are valued in kata competition.

 

[Scutter01]

It's also something I've noticed a lot in point fighters. I think point fighting has a tendency to encourage certain attributes. People who are primarily point fighters tend to favor very quick, "flicky" movements, because that's what is rewarded in their sport. The kinds of body mechanics that would deliver power, along with many other considerations that would be important in MMA or on the street (and yes, there are some differences there, too...) are not necessarily important to a point fighter. The same is true for any of the other sports, including MMA -- an MMA guy would not typically come in and dominate a kata competition without some transition work, as they don't put emphasis on some of the things that are valued in kata competition.

Very true, but the same can be said about pretty much any sport. Bowlers won't be good skittles players. Baseballers won't be good cricket players. Just because they're related doesn't mean they're the same. That said, it seems like the martial artists who are most successful in MMA and street fighting are the ones who realize that techniques don't change just because you're on the ground. Even on your back, you can still do a leg sweep, for example. The technique is the same, but the target or the end result will be different. Rotating your body 90 degrees changes nothing. Too many karate point fighters jump in the MMA ring and never understand why they get crushed.

 

[iChokePeople]

Very true, but the same can be said about pretty much any sport. Bowlers won't be good skittles players. Baseballers won't be good cricket players.

No argument. But let's not start calling baseball and bowling "sports".

 

[Scutter01]

No argument. But let's not start calling baseball and bowling "sports".

Bowling is an excuse to get drunk and drunk is an excuse for my bowling.

 

[TaunTaun]

I prefer Tae Kwon Leap, myself.


Boot to the head.

 

[nakinate]

One thing I really appreciated about taking Karate at the Adamson dojos is their emphasis on self defense scenarios. I don't know how the curriculum is organized elsewhere, but I feel I gained a lot of knowledge in regards to self-defense when you don't have a weapon.

 

[rhino]

I took Karate 3 times when I was younger. Trained at Kincaids Karate in Lebanon. My dad practiced there as well, and actually met Herb Johnson, well, not met, but was in the same room as he was...

Hah! I knew Mike Kinkaide! Saw him at pretty much every tournament for years when I was junior. When I turned 16 and had to compete with the adults, Mike and I were competitors the brown belt division. He was a lot better than I was, but I had better hair.

I also remember that he was one of the nicest guys in the group. He had the skills equal or better to many of the less pleasant individuals, but he was always friendly.

It's also something I've noticed a lot in point fighters. I think point fighting has a tendency to encourage certain attributes. People who are primarily point fighters tend to favor very quick, "flicky" movements, because that's what is rewarded in their sport. The kinds of body mechanics that would deliver power, along with many other considerations that would be important in MMA or on the street (and yes, there are some differences there, too...) are not necessarily important to a point fighter. The same is true for any of the other sports, including MMA -- an MMA guy would not typically come in and dominate a kata competition without some transition work, as they don't put emphasis on some of the things that are valued in kata competition.

I learned this as a kid, but I was not adept at being flicky. On multiple occasions, I would knock people down to the ground by punching them pretty much anywhere I could land a punch, but I didn't get points for it. I was not rewarded for my behavior and now look what's happened to me!

Very true, but the same can be said about pretty much any sport. Bowlers won't be good skittles players. Baseballers won't be good cricket players. Just because they're related doesn't mean they're the same. That said, it seems like the martial artists who are most successful in MMA and street fighting are the ones who realize that techniques don't change just because you're on the ground. Even on your back, you can still do a leg sweep, for example. The technique is the same, but the target or the end result will be different. Rotating your body 90 degrees changes nothing. Too many karate point fighters jump in the MMA ring and never understand why they get crushed.

No argument. But let's not start calling baseball and bowling "sports".

Hey, were it not for bowling, the Philippines would have no Olympic Gold Medalists!

 

[chezuki]

I have no delusions that I would fair well against any kind of real "fighter", but the very few physical altercations I've had in my life have all been settled rather quickly without injury to myself. While I don't think my years of Karate have made me a formidable fighter, what they have done is develop and hone some pretty quick reflexes (especially for a fat man) that, when combined with joint locks, chokes and take-downs, kept me from even having to strike on all but one occasion.

I took Karate 3 times when I was younger. Trained at Kincaids Karate in Lebanon.

I trained at Kincaid's dojo a few times. He understood that some aspects of other styles were good defensive tools to have in your defensive repertoire and occasionally hosted guest instructors for seminars. I remember one specifically on pressure-points (better for striking than poking) and another on intro to ju-jitsu (Japanese, not Brazilian).

Kincaid and Morgan were both friends and rivals and they often finished 1st and 2nd in the local competitions.

 

[Jackson]

Phil Morgan You?

Is Phil Morgan's (Shorei Goju Ryu) a hard "knockdown" style of karate? (i.e. live, full-contact, full-force sparring and competitions?) Or is it oriented toward point fighting with minimal actual, hard contact during practice sparring?

 

[Jackson]

Karate people like the OP video give Karate a bad name. It kinda bugs me. This is what people see of Karate and why everyone thinks Karate people can't fight. There are some serious, hard, no BS Karate styles out there. Those styles produce pretty decent strikers who are tough as hell.

Its been a long time since I was in it, but I want to take this opportunity to showcase the harder, more serious side of Karate that's available.

The only kind of Karate I have any experience with is Kyokushin. It didn't look anything like that. A full half hour of every class was spent on full-speed, plenty-of-contact sparring. A lot of it was bare knuckle. Competitions didn't allow hand strikes to the head, but they were called "knockdown" tournaments because the objective was to knock a guy down with a body shot or a kick (head, leg, wherever). In practice though, we commonly put on gloves to go to the head. I don't see any point to the kind of stuff pictured in the OP video. I guess to my way of thinking, hard, full-contact karate is the only worthwhile karate training. If someone asked me what kind of Karate to get in to, I would point them to something like this. Kyokushin, World Oyama, Enshin, etc.

Belt "gradings" involved live fighting. I believe I topped out at 5th Kyu after a few years and my last fight for a belt was five rounds, two minutes each. It is a fresh opponent each round. Contact is hard. Speed is fast. Its basically an endurance test.

Tournaments tend to look a little silly because of the no head-punching rule. But I promise those body shots and head kicks hurt like a mother. Kyokushin guys tend to do pretty well against Muay Thai guys in K1 and similar kickboxing competitions.
[video=youtube;UwyEHpsuFNw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwyEHpsuFNw[/video]

Kyokushin guy loses this fight. The point is you don't see too much difference in technique and he is competing with serious Muay Thai kickboxers.
[video=youtube;N542vsDX00U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N542vsDX00U[/video]

A show called "Fight Quest" showcased some Kyokushin training and methods on TV:
[video=youtube;kcwObThOxIE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwObThOxIE[/video]
I've seen a similar ice break to the one demonstrated in this video and even handled the ice after it was done. It was no BS. I'd have broken my arm.

Also, it means pretty much nothing but both George St. Pierre (Of UFC fame) and Dolph Lundgren (Actor) have black belts in Kyokushin. So, clearly its awesome. :-)

 

[chezuki]

Is Phil Morgan's (Shorei Goju Ryu) a hard "knockdown" style of karate? (i.e. live, full-contact, full-force sparring and competitions?) Or is it oriented toward point fighting with minimal actual, hard contact during practice sparring?

The "competition sparing" portion is not full contact. It's more point-style, but that's a very small part of the style in general and I was never that interested in it. When I did participate in tournaments (which was rare, and usually only when mandatory), it was in Kata, and Weapons Kata. My focus and interest was always more geared towards the self-defense side of things. I started out young, but once I began participating in the "adult" classes, the contact on the self-defense side of things was heavy but controlled. We weren't trying to really hurt each other, but it was certainly unpleasant enough to implement techniques to avoid getting hit. There were some black eyes and busted lips.

 

[Scutter01]

The "competition sparing" portion is not full contact. It's more point-style, but that's a very small part of the style in general and I was never that interested in it. When I did participate in tournaments (which was rare, and usually only when mandatory), it was in Kata, and Weapons Kata. My focus and interest was always more geared towards the self-defense side of things. I started out young, but once I began participating in the "adult" classes, the contact on the self-defense side of things was heavy but controlled. We weren't trying to really hurt each other, but it was certainly unpleasant enough to implement techniques to avoid getting hit. There were some black eyes and busted lips.

Spasmo and I competed in an invitational tournament in Europe about ten years ago. It was NO contact! They wore no pads or cups or anything. We were told it was because many of the participants were from countries with very little money and so equipment was not really an option. During sparring, any contact was a disqualification. It actually turned out to be really interesting to fight that way. It emphasized extreme control over punishing power. You had to demonstrate a precise and deliberate strike, stopping just millimeters away from contact. You couldn't just whiff it and score a point. It was extremely fun and surprisingly challenging. I only took 4th place, though.

For our weapons competitions, I brought my saia which were almost unheard of. Almost everyone used either a bo or tonfa because wooden weapons are so cheap. The saia were a big "Wow!" factor and undoubtedly earned me some extra points that I probably didn't deserve.

 

[Jackson]

Spasmo and I competed in an invitational tournament in Europe about ten years ago. It was NO contact! They wore no pads or cups or anything. We were told it was because many of the participants were from countries with very little money and so equipment was not really an option. During sparring, any contact was a disqualification. It actually turned out to be really interesting to fight that way. It emphasized extreme control over punishing power. You had to demonstrate a precise and deliberate strike, stopping just millimeters away from contact. You couldn't just whiff it and score a point. It was extremely fun and surprisingly challenging. I only took 4th place, though.

I agree there are some advantages to developing great control and perfect technique. I admire the form and control of serious Karateka. I also think if its all you do, you never become a serious fighter or understand how to deal with the contact and pressure of a real fight.

 

[Scutter01]

I agree there are some advantages to developing great control and perfect technique. I admire the form and control of serious Karateka. I also think if its all you do, you never become a serious fighter or understand how to deal with the contact and pressure of a real fight.

Oh, absolutely. But people take martial arts for all kinds of reasons. Not everyone is interested in self-defense or "serious fighting". It's great that there are different schools and styles for everyone's needs. It would really suck if you were just looking to get an aerobic workout and improve your reaction times but you were forced to submit to the occasional bare-knuckle face-pummeling to get it.

 

[Jackson]

Oh, absolutely. But people take martial arts for all kinds of reasons. Not everyone is interested in self-defense or "serious fighting". It's great that there are different schools and styles for everyone's needs. It would really suck if you were just looking to get an aerobic workout and improve your reaction times but you were forced to submit to the occasional bare-knuckle face-pummeling to get it.

Indeed. Good point, and I agree.

I should also point out I am certainly no "serious fighter" and only ever did anything recreationally. I didn't even know the difference when I got in to it. But I came to enjoy the contact and the test that it represented.

 

[iChokePeople]

Oh, absolutely. But people take martial arts for all kinds of reasons. Not everyone is interested in self-defense or "serious fighting". It's great that there are different schools and styles for everyone's needs. It would really suck if you were just looking to get an aerobic workout and improve your reaction times but you were forced to submit to the occasional bare-knuckle face-pummeling to get it.

yes, daniel-San.

 

[Scutter01]

yes, daniel-San.

Wax off is my favorite technique.

 

[iChokePeople]

Wax off is my favorite technique.

I know, I'm married, too.

 

[chezuki]

Wax off is my favorite technique.

I know, I'm married, too.