Keltec Rifle Opinions?

[Wabatuckian]

Hello,

I've been looking at lightweight, light caliber (.223) personal defense and hiking semi-autos, one of which will compliment a .223 precision rifle I'm planning.

Went and tried several AR rifles. I still hate 'em. They seem heavy for the caliber, even stripped, and none feel "right". Can't put my finger on it. I do believe a big part is the pistol grip.

This would be more along the lines of what I'm looking for:

Kel Tec CNC

Full stock, simple AR design.

I don't like the folding stuff or built in bipod (that seems more suited to a light machine gun IMO) but the basic design is great.

I would also come in under budget.

What do you folks think? Are these fairly accurate? Are they durable? I do definitely like the light weight -- that would be perfect for hiking. I'd like to fit a shooting sling... can this be done?

What are the overall opinions of these carbines?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[IndianaResident]

My opinion is that they are very cool.


If you find yourself between an AR and a keltec, consider the mini-14. It has your more tradition rifle stock, but still many options.

 

[LEaSH]

DisposableHeart had one crack. I don't know which he had A, B, C, or CA, but it sounded as if it was the receiver (poly).

I don't know his shooting habbits, but he seems like a straight up, no BS ingo'er. You'll have to ask him for details.

 

[tradertator]

Accurate? Fairly
Durable? Not so much.
Light? Extremely.

Here's another vote for the ranch rifles, if your not a fan of the AR platform.

 

[kludge]

I have the SU-16A. I wanted the longer barrel. I've had several hundred rounds through mine with very few issues. I've not had any issues since I ditched a piece of crap "Mil-Spec" magazine, and now use Brownell's magazines exclisively. I had the old style firing pin (a known issue) and it broke during dry firing. Kel Tec sent me two of the new ones. No other issues.

Accuracy with surplus XM193, SS109, and Wolf ammo is about as good as the ammo and my eyes can do with iron sights (2.5-3" groups). I have not tried to develop a load for it. Yet.

If you don't like the stock and the bi-pod you can get a forend with rails and a AR style stock adapter with pistol grip on their web site.

 

[Disposable Heart]

LEaSH is right: I had an SU16B that cracked on me. Granted Keltec has a great warranty, however, they refused to help me at the beginning because I had shot "too much M193" through it. 1K rounds the the gun not only cracked the reciever, it discombomulated the bolt and damaged all support structures inside the reciever (bolt carrier rails) and trigger grouping. They initially said the warranty does not cover "abuse" with apparently 1K rounds (no rapid firing, no melt the gun exercises) of Federal M193 was supposedly.

After pretty much claiming I was going to talk to a lawyer (after reading their manual back to them regarding the warranty which had nothing implied or claimed regarding milsurp ammo), I finally got a manager who told me to send it in. They didn't send a calltag or anything, MY dime. The gun was only 3 months old and still under warranty. After said and done, I got a check for what I paid for the rifle from them and swore off Keltec rifles for good. If they had at least paid for the shipping, I would have been fine paying for repairs after the rigamarole I had suffered just to turn around and sell it (recoup costs). But it was the fact that they claimed I had damaged it (without even hearing the ammo fired!) and their general attitude, I am not a Keltec fan (though I love their designs!)

I would own their pistols again, they are great, but at the cost of owning two (one for practice and one for carry). I have had a P3AT stretch it's "frame" making the reciever loose in the zytel frame. I had to pay shipping (second owner) and repairs. Sold it. I had a PF9 reciever crack (the alloy part) after 200 rounds of WWB. They made me pay for shipping, but I loved that pistol so I didn't mind that part. They covered the repair and sent me a check for the shipping (which I recieved relatively recently).

After reading Ktog a few times, I find that this isn't a uncommon occurrance regarding Milsurp ammo and warranty claims.

The rifle itself: Not terrible, but for the cost I see them at stores, a decent AK would probably be a better investment. My WASR has not self destructed after 1K rounds.

The trigger needs work for any sort of accuracy, the "iron" sights stink (very wide front post, flimsy construction, replaced mine with a red dot). Accuracy, meh. 3-4 MOA, even with handloads, heat strung like a ***** after 10 rounds fired relatively slow. The built in bipod is a toy, nothing more. After about a mag of horsing around with it, you will give up. Not very sturdy and cheap.

They are light but at the cost of alloy and polymer construction (not terribly reinforced if you open it up for cleaning and take a look at the internals). Very frail looking and based on my experience, not terribly strong.

In general, one will get LOTS of folks that say they are great but never fired one, even more that will say they love theirs (fired them) but low round count. Backup rifle, I would rather have an AK for durability (and pretty light weight, the inaccuracy claims of AKs are usually folks that don't know how to shoot them or use crappy ammo, have gotten better accuracy using brass cased ammo in my WASR than my handloads in the SU-16B). If you don't intend on firing alot of ammo through it or using it for conventional warfare, it's a nice range toy.

 

[geronimojoe85]

My dad has an su-16 that he likes (I don't think he shoots it much). Another option is the Saiga.

 

[dagibson1507]

I like mine. Makes a great backpack gun. Just don't lose the pin. Agree that the bi-pod is a joke, put the compact forend on mine and love it. Accuracy on mine was closer to 1.5-2 but it has the longer barrel and was scoped. Had plans for the pistol grip but never got around to it.

 

[neraph]

As some have said, the kel-tecs have questionable reliability.

Another option would be a mini-14, but they are not as accurate as an AR.
A saiga 223 would be another option, but they are also not as accurate and the trigger on them sucks unless you convert it and add a pistol grip (IMHO).

Another option would be one of the California-legal stocks for AR-15s. They look a but odd, but might feel better to someone who is use to a traditional rifle stock. California Rifles or Exile Machine LLC - Tactical Compliance

 

[dom1104]

Kel Tec makes crap guns. Always have, always will.

Its their market. Toys that shoot... for a while.

Its hard to find a rifle that doesnt have a pistol grip that is .223 and mag fed, its a feature most people like.

I cannot personally reccomend mini-14s from a reliability or weight standpoint.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Lots of Saiga suggestions, which is awesome. The .223 rifle variant of the Sagia is handy, very light, comes with 10 rounders (or can accept 30s), pretty accurate for cost and very durable. They can be scoped, they don't look AS evil as an AK and still have the sporter style profile stock.

There is also an adapter from Magnolia State Arms? that allows the Saiga .223s to use AR mags.

 

[malern28us]

There is an adapter for AR that will take away the pistol grip and turn it into a more conventional rifle stock like grip. You still have the buffer assembly (pistol) above the stock portion but an option to be sure. If you ask me what the name of it is, I am drawing a blank right now but found it on maryland gun owners forum.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Thanks folks.

On the AR platform: One of my main complaints is the skinny pistol grip and the safety.

Being a lefty, I have no problem with the safety being on the left side as I'm used to it. The Mini-14 might be a tad better from this standpoint, but not terribly so.

The skinny grip, on the other hand, combined with the safety being how it is, makes it rub my hand when firing. Even with little recoil it's not pleasant.

Would there be a thick, hand-filling grip out there, that would maybe have a recess into which the safety would fit when off, keeping it away from my hand?

That, installed on a 'Nam era AR RIFLE, would be idea for me. No collapsing stocks, nothing like that.

In other words, to say that I don't like pistol grips as a general rule is inaccurate; the ones found on, say, the Hi-Point carbines are ideal for me. When I had one, I just slipped some bicycle innertube around it to get a bit of a better grip. From the factory it was hand filling and pleasant to fire.

(If they made a .223, I'd probably buy the thing. Heck, I'll probably buy their .45 carbine, to go with my 1911. But it maxes out at 200 yards or so, and that's pushing it. The power is there but it's in a rainbow trajectory.)

On the other hand, the AR feels like I'm gripping a stick.

My hand measurements are 8" or 9" by 4". The 1911 with wraparound Pachmayr grips feels good to me, and the M9 feels a bit small.

So yeah, I'm a freak of nature

I need a longer LOP. Actually the one on the T/C New Englander feels just right; most people I talk to find it long.

Even when in a squared stance, as opposed to bladed, a fully extended M4 is too short. I don't wear body armor any longer, so there's nothing there to make up for the extra length, and I prefer a bladed stance anyway.

Guess maybe I'm getting old enough to be set in my ways? :P

Anyway, yes, I would like a nice, inexpensive AR RIFLE with 1:12" twist or so for maximum bullet upset upon striking a soft target.

Not sure I can find one that matches both "inexpensive" and what I want, though.

It will be a rifle to kick around and expect it not to fail when I need it.

Saiga is a good choice, but too unavailable. Everyone has heard of the Mini-14 and the AR15/M16.

Thanks,

Josh

 

[dom1104]

Josh, one thing about ARs, is you can have it however you want it.

look into the Magpul MOE grip, its much thicker than the stock A2.

The rest of your specs, you can just.. build up.

I would go, 16 inch mid length barrel, moe handgaurd, moe grip, and a a2 stock and call it done.

Something like this.

 

[dom1104]

Maybe slap a 20 round pmag on there, actually.. wait here.

Ok made that up for ya.

That rifle would be LIGHT, and handy.

16 inch barrel, moe grip, moe handgaurds... viola.

 

[neraph]

The Magpul MIAD probably fits the bill for the grip size problem. It has interchangeable front and rear straps. If you want something wider than there are options for that too.

The standard A2 stock has a 13.5" length of pull. You can add another 3/4" or so with a recoil pad.