Kids planet "no firearms" ic

[jkaetz]

Letting the kids enjoy their last day of vacation at Kids Planet in Brownsburgh. They have the attached sign on the door all official looking but reference the trespassing statute. While I'm well aware that they can trespass someone for whatever they want are they allowed to try and conflate it with a "no firearms" sign?

 

[firecadet613]

While the sign may look official, its not... most likely trying to scare law abiding citizens but stating an IC, assuming no one will verify it.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yeah, this isnt the first time a business has cited that law, even though that IC doesnt say what they want you to think it says.

Flat out lie.

 

[Lpherr]

Well, being Indiana... what sign?

All those signs are good for, is attracting the attention of the criminal.

 

[Ballstater98]

No revolvers allowed.

 

[jkaetz]

Well, being Indiana... what sign?

All those signs are good for, is attracting the attention of the criminal.

Oh yes I knew the signs didn't hold any weight and the trespassing statute only tangentially applies.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Now what I want to know, is did they buy/download that sign based on what somebody else told them, or are they lying about it intentionally?

 

[bobzilla]

No revolvers allowed.

Meier used to be anti beretta. Good thing I don’t own any berettas.

 

[Lpherr]

Meier used to be anti beretta. Good thing I don’t own any berettas.

Thankfully it's just the Berretta. I'll be sure to take the AR on the next visit. Their new carts even sport a magazine holder for convenience.

 

[chipbennett]

Letting the kids enjoy their last day of vacation at Kids Planet in Brownsburgh. They have the attached sign on the door all official looking but reference the trespassing statute. While I'm well aware that they can trespass someone for whatever they want are they allowed to try and conflate it with a "no firearms" sign?

IANAL

No. Signs (edit: "No Firearms" and similar) do not have force of law in Indiana.

There are some INGO lawyers (actual lawyers) who have posited an interesting interpretation by which they claim that signs could be considered to carry the force of law, but to my knowledge, that interpretation has yet to be attempted/challenged in court. I'd also defer to them (and better yet, to your own lawyer) in any actual, real-world scenarios.

 

[Quiet Observer]

The sign is legal. The picture of the gun draws the public's attention to the sign (per #2). If you are careless in concealing, and they see it, they can have you arrested. I am not defending their decision to forbid firearms. They are making their facility less safe. Make your own decision on how much you want to enter and whether you will allow their decision to endanger you and your loved ones.

"(c) A person has been denied entry under subsection (b)(1) when the person has been denied entry by means of:

(1) personal communication, oral or written;

(2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the attention of the public;"

https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-43-2-2/

 

[bobzilla]

That not how that works.

 

[chipbennett]

The sign is legal. The picture of the gun draws the public's attention to the sign (per #2). If you are careless in concealing, and they see it, they can have you arrested. I am not defending their decision to forbid firearms. They are making their facility less safe. Make your own decision on how much you want to enter and whether you will allow their decision to endanger you and your loved ones.

"(c) A person has been denied entry under subsection (b)(1) when the person has been denied entry by means of:

(1) personal communication, oral or written;

A sign isn't "personal communication."

(2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the attention of the public;"

https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-43-2-2/

That "notice" is, explicitly, "No Trespassing" - signage that does, in fact, have force of law. "No guns" and "no trespassing" are not the same thing, under these statutes.

Further, you need to refer back to (b)(1), which states: "(b) A person who: (1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters the real property of another person after having been denied entry by the other person or that person's agent;"

A person entering a place of business for the purpose of conducting business has a "contractual interest in the property" - by definition.

So, no: that's not how that works.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

If you are careless in concealing, and they see it, they can have you arrested.

Based on my understanding, they can't have you arrested for carrying a gun. They can escort you off their property for trespassing if they tell you to go.

 

[chipbennett]

Based on my understanding, they can't have you arrested for carrying a gun. They can escort you off their property for trespassing if they tell you to go.

Yes. This would constitute "personal communication". If you refuse to leave, and they call the police, and the police inform you that you are criminally trespassing if you refuse to leave, and then you still refuse to leave, then you can/will be arrested under this IC.

 

[Cameramonkey]

A sign isn't "personal communication."


That "notice" is, explicitly, "No Trespassing" - signage that does, in fact, have force of law. "No guns" and "no trespassing" are not the same thing, under these statutes.

Further, you need to refer back to (b)(1), which states: "(b) A person who: (1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters the real property of another person after having been denied entry by the other person or that person's agent;"

A person entering a place of business for the purpose of conducting business has a "contractual interest in the property" - by definition.

So, no: that's not how that works.

And states where signs DO hold force of law ALSO list exactly how the signs must be displayed in the legislation. Where, how big, etc. And it typically has to be a specific sign. Ours does not do that. And that is a BIG show stopper.

So for instance in TX I believe where they have what is called the 30.06 law, if you are not displaying the official sign in the right place, it doesnt count. So if you cheap out and get a 2x2" generic "no guns" sticker from Lowes, you havent posted a sign that has the force of law.

 

[1nderbeard]

I've ignored plenty other more official looking signs than that one.

 

[Lpherr]

I've ignored plenty other more official looking signs than that one.

They will have you arrested.

 

[firecadet613]

Yes. This would constitute "personal communication". If you refuse to leave, and they call the police, and the police inform you that you are criminally trespassing if you refuse to leave, and then you still refuse to leave, then you can/will be arrested under this IC.

That's not "personal communication".

Signs do not have the force of law in Indiana! See my snippet above from handgunlaw.us

If they ask you to leave, for ANY reason, and you refuse to leave, then they can call the police and have you removed/trespassed.

Concealed is concealed though...carry on.

 

[Cameramonkey]

That's not "personal communication".

Signs do not have the force of law in Indiana! See my snippet above from handgunlaw.us

If they ask you to leave, for ANY reason, and you refuse to leave, then they can call the police and have you removed/trespassed.

Concealed is concealed though...carry on.

Yes it is. He was referring to Zurok's description of somebody physically telling you to GTFO. Not the signs.