Legality of copied LTCH permit

[starbury33]

I went to Staples today and asked to make copies of my LTCH permit but the clerk refused. He said that the permit is considered an identification and they are not allowed to do so. I pressed but he insisted that he won't do it and gave me a pamphlet with information of what can and can't be copied. At the end, he said that he knew of people that buy some pink papers from the store and make copies of the permit themselves. He is willing to laminate those copies since there is no restriction of lamination.

My question is: are such copies legal? My copier is not the best kind so you'll know that it is a copy if you stare at it long enough. Do you guys carry the original around?

 

[Bigum1969]

Do a quick search on this topic. There has been some great discussion regarding copying the LTCHs.

 

[Pami]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...16185-ingunowners_faqs_sticky.html#post187167

scroll about half way through that post if you can't find the links through searching.

 

[tv1217]

It's not really legal, but from what I've read and been told on here and by ISP Trooper, if a LEO can't tell and/or isn't a dick(troopers words ) + the original is still valid, they'll accept it.

 

[Arm America]

For what its worth, I was informed to two copy centers that they were unable to provide copies since a lawman had requested that copies not be provided.
Both times I questioned their reasoning based on someone dropping in without a written order from the courts or governing agency without changing their minds.
Stopped at a Kinkos, found the pink paper and was able to do it myself though I did need assistance on the laminate. Oh ya, I parked at an expired meter, and exceeded the speed limit all in the same day..........Knock on wood.

 

[starbury33]

Thanks for the responses, folks, and the link, Pami. Sorry for the repost.

I guess I'm seeing it in different light on this. Maybe a silly way of looking at it. If I lose my $100 bill but had made an exact copy of the bill, would the copy be valid? I don't feel comfortable fooling the cops to think a copy is an original, because to me, then you are guilty of something. I mean, if the cop asked you point blank, is this a copy of the permit, you wouldn't lie, would you?

 

[tv1217]

I don't think that's a good comparison. The LTCH is just a document that declares your right to carry a handgun. It's kinda like how the second amendment doesn't give you the right, you already have it, even without that sheet stating so, you still sorta have the right.

The only difference is you don't have to apply for coverage under the bill of rights.

 

[1032JBT]

Thanks for the responses, folks, and the link, Pami. Sorry for the repost.

I guess I'm seeing it in different light on this. Maybe a silly way of looking at it. If I lose my $100 bill but had made an exact copy of the bill, would the copy be valid? I don't feel comfortable fooling the cops to think a copy is an original, because to me, then you are guilty of something. I mean, if the cop asked you point blank, is this a copy of the permit, you wouldn't lie, would you?

Well from a cops perspective, WTH do I care if it's a copy or original???? If you have a LTCH, then you can carry one as long as that LTCH has not been revoked. I would never even think of asking if it was a copy or the original. I would ask you if it had been revoked before I would ask if it was a copy.........and for what it's worth I have never asked that either.

I know I'm only one cop's on here and even if you add up all the cop's registered here that is a drop in the bucket compared to how many are in the state. I'm sure you would get a multitude of answers if you asked every last one.

Bottom line.....I don't care if it's a copy, just that you have one.

 

[nwindiana]

I carry the original. I had it laminated

 

[Armed & Christian]

Shrink the original down to 86% onto pink paper.

The biggest mistake you made was asking the clerk to do something that you could've done for yourself. I made several copies, and keep the original in a lock box. I keep a copy in the car, one in each pistol case, and one in my wallet.

 

[tv1217]

Shrink the original down to 86% onto pink paper.

*curiosity piqued*

 

[Bill of Rights]

*curiosity piqued*

Makes it fit in your wallet better.

Also, IIRC, there is a printer (I think) on here who has volunteered a special for INGO members-copy and laminate LTCH for free. I want to say he's in the Indy area, possibly Fishers-ish, though I'm not sure of it.

ETA: Google-fu is strong, grasshopper. https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._ltch_permit_lamination_for_ingo_members.html

Blessings,
Bill

 

[mikea46996]

Makes it fit in your wallet better.


Blessings,
Bill

Hmmmmmm gonna have to do just that when my new one shows up.

My old one looks like it went through a war the edges are all twisted and crumbled even with the laminate.

 

[Walter Zoomie]

The LTCH is just a document that declares your right to carry a handgun.

Truth ^^^

I had a Kinkos dude try to tell me it was a form of ID too, and that's why he wouldn't copy it on pink paper. I called BS, and suggested he call the State Police to verify.

He wouldn't budge.

If it was a form of ID, wouldn't it include a picture of the licensee as well...and maybe a SS#?

Anyhoo, I had him laminate the original after I made several B&W paper copies and saved a digital scan of the document to CD.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Truth ^^^

I had a Kinkos dude try to tell me it was a form of ID too, and that's why he wouldn't copy it on pink paper. I called BS, and suggested he call the State Police to verify.

He wouldn't budge.

If it was a form of ID, wouldn't it include a picture of the licensee as well...and maybe a SS#?

Anyhoo, I had him laminate the original after I made several B&W paper copies and saved a digital scan of the document to CD.

Actually.... Walter, your post got me thinking about something I saw at the BMV a while back-their list of acceptable ID documents:

Acceptable Primary Documents
Acceptable United States documents:

• US Birth Certificate with authenticating stamp or seal containing the applicant's date of birth, place of birth, and parent's names issued by a county department or county board of health from the applicant's state of birth, a state department or state board of health from the applicant's state of birth, or a verified delayed birth certificate.
• Certificate of Naturalization/Citizenship
• Certification of report of birth (DS-1350)
• U.S. consular report of birth (FS-240)
• Birth certificate issued by United States territories, including American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico, and Virgin Islands
• U.S. Veterans Universal Access Identification card with photo
• U.S. Military/Merchant Marines identification card with photo
• U.S. Passport

Acceptable Secondary Documents

Any document from the list of Primary Documents may be used as a Secondary Document.

• Certified academic transcripts from schools in the United States and its territories
• School report card dated within 12 months of application
• School identification card with photo or yearbook photo within three years of application
• An identification card with photo issued by a foreign consulate
• An identification card with photo issued by the federal government
• An Indiana identification card
• A driver license, identification card, or permit with photo issued by another state
• Original driving record from another state
• Valid form I-20 with a valid form I-94 and a F-1/F-2 status in passport
• Valid form DS-2019 with a valid form I-94 and a J-1/J-2 status in passport
• Indiana county pre-sentence Investigation report with clerk stamp or seal
• Indiana gun permit
• Indiana probation identification with photo, name and date of birth
• Letter from probation officer, caseworker, or social worker on official letterhead, certified with stamp or seal with the applicant's name and signature of the probation officer, caseworker, or social worker
• Prison release documentation
• U.S. district court pre-sentence Investigation report with stamp or seal
• Valid banking card or MasterCard, Visa, American Express, or Discover card issued in the name of the applicant with his or her signature
• Bank statement issued within sixty (60) days of application
• Form W-2 (federal or state) or Form 1099 with applicant's name and address
• Computer generated pay check stub with applicant's name and address
• Valid employee identification card with photo
• Valid Indiana professional license
• Valid insurance card
• Medicare or Medicaid Card
• U.S. military discharge or DD214 separation papers
• U.S. Uniformed services card
• Divorce decree certified by court of law with stamp or seal.
• Application of Marriage or Record of Marriage that is certified with stamp or seal

Yeah, I know, we don't have a gun "permit", we have a LTCH, however, splitting hairs doesn't change the fact. Conversely, however, people copy IDs all the time, including driver licenses, for employer files, etc.
The question to ask is if he can cite a law that makes what you want to do unlawful. If he can't cite statute or case law, he has no argument.

And yes, standard disclaimers apply:
IANAL, IDPOOTV, IDSIAHIELN, TINLA

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Rookie]

Printcraft is located in Kokomo. I had Staples try to tell me it was a FEDERAL document. They wouldn't copy it, but they helped me pick out the right paper - go figure.

 

[Walter Zoomie]

Well..don't I feel like a silly fool now.

 

[Rookie]

The girl was wrong. There is nothing federal about a state issued permit. It just goes to show that they have no idea what they are talking about. It would be better if they would simply state that their boss won't allow it instead of trying to teach you something that they are clueless about.

 

[Tommy2Tone]

I am awaiting mine, but is there witting on each side? That would just make printing your own copies just a little harder.

Just thought of something. Dont you need both your DL and LTCH, so if you make several copies, such as one for the car and one for your wallet. Isnt the one in the car useless. B/c your DL would be in your waller with your other LTCH? School me if need be.

 

[Armed & Christian]

Nope. It is one-sided only. And, yes, shrinking it down to 86% makes it the same size as a credit card after lamination. I should've been more specific, sorry.