LEO can't stop you in IN for just carrying a handgun.

[MikeDVB]

Exactly!

I really doubt a LEO would willingly take the risk of the resulting lawsuit based an a hunch, but if he TRULY believed that you were lying go ahead and arrest them, they STILL don't have to ID themselves

And how does that work exactly... When they arrest you and take you to jail - can they not just flip open your wallet and look at your ID (assuming you have it on you, and just refuse to provide it)? They've already seized it as far as I understand it - so what stops them from looking at it?

Also, being licensed and having fingerprints in the system - your refusal to hand them your drivers license is just going to force them to fingerprint you (and, as such, identify you). It seems like refusing to ID on a stop to check your LTCH would just delay the inevitable if they really wanted to find out who you are (not that it means we should be compelled to provide ID if we don't).

Unless you have some reason to hide your identity (i.e. warrants, etc) I'd probably personally just hand it over if they asked unless they were overboard JBT.

 

[Mr. Habib]

To me, this is the essence of the point. In 28 years of carrying, I've never once been asked for a permit because nobody ever knows that I'm carrying. I didn't miss the point. I'm saying to avoid the problem from the beginning. This post has a lot to do with mode of carry.

I've carried for over 30 years, much of that openly. I, too, have never been stopped or asked for my license and everybody knows that I'm carrying. I have, however, had a number of good encounters with fellow gun owners and even had the privilege of educating a few of the sheep. I don't have a problem.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

And how does that work exactly... When they arrest you and take you to jail - can they not just flip open your wallet and look at your ID (assuming you have it on you, and just refuse to provide it)? They've already seized it as far as I understand it - so what stops them from looking at it?

Also, being licensed and having fingerprints in the system - your refusal to hand them your drivers license is just going to force them to fingerprint you (and, as such, identify you). It seems like refusing to ID on a stop to check your LTCH would just delay the inevitable if they really wanted to find out who you are (not that it means we should be compelled to provide ID if we don't).

Unless you have some reason to hide your identity (i.e. warrants, etc) I'd probably personally just hand it over if they asked unless they were overboard JBT.

I'll hand them my LTCH. If I'm not driving I do not carry my DL. If they want more then they will get a whole lot of IC and case law quoted before I clam up and guve them the 1000 yard stare.

 

[MikeDVB]

I'll hand them my LTCH. If I'm not driving I do not carry my DL. If they want more then they will get a whole lot of IC and case law quoted before I clam up and guve them the 1000 yard stare.

Ah, I have my ID on me all the time unless I'm running on the treadmill or bumbling around the house in my pajamas (it happens).

In that situation, however, I do know my DLN, date of birth, SSN, etc... If I felt I had to identify myself or be arrested. Obviously so long as I've not actually broken any laws the arrest would likely end up expunged but I can't say that I'd want to go down that path myself...

It's just sort of silly, imho, that the law doesn't say we have to provide ID but the consequences of legally choosing not to identify yourself could result in arrest, court dates, possibly lawsuits, etc...

 

[rw496]

And how does that work exactly... When they arrest you and take you to jail - can they not just flip open your wallet and look at your ID (assuming you have it on you, and just refuse to provide it)? They've already seized it as far as I understand it - so what stops them from looking at it?

Also, being licensed and having fingerprints in the system - your refusal to hand them your drivers license is just going to force them to fingerprint you (and, as such, identify you). It seems like refusing to ID on a stop to check your LTCH would just delay the inevitable if they really wanted to find out who you are (not that it means we should be compelled to provide ID if we don't).

Unless you have some reason to hide your identity (i.e. warrants, etc) I'd probably personally just hand it over if they asked unless they were overboard JBT.

All of that is correct and you will certainly be identified, fingerprinted, etc. at jail as standard booking procedure. However, you are missing the point of these threads. We are looking for any ideas, no matter how BAD, impractical, far flung, ridiculous, arbitrary, etc.. so long as they are technically correct and you can cite either an IC code or case law that vaguely mentions a situation that was only partly similar to the hypothetical situation in the OP.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Ah, I have my ID on me all the time unless I'm running on the treadmill or bumbling around the house in my pajamas (it happens).

In that situation, however, I do know my DLN, date of birth, SSN, etc... If I felt I had to identify myself or be arrested. Obviously so long as I've not actually broken any laws the arrest would likely end up expunged but I can't say that I'd want to go down that path myself...

It's just sort of silly, imho, that the law doesn't say we have to provide ID but the consequences of legally choosing not to identify yourself could result in arrest, court dates, possibly lawsuits, etc...

Well not exactly. The only requirement we have, EVER, is to provide name, birthdate and address if we are accused of an infraction or ordinance violation. A DL or state issued picture ID will suffice if available.

Any arrests or additional detainment is on them as far as I'm concerned. If it is my responsibility to know the law to abide by it then it CERTAINLY is their responsibility to know the law they are trying to enforce.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

All of that is correct and you will certainly be identified, fingerprinted, etc. at jail as standard booking procedure. However, you are missing the point of these threads. We are looking for any ideas, no matter how BAD, impractical, far flung, ridiculous, arbitrary, etc.. so long as they are technically correct and you can cite either an IC code or case law that vaguely mentions a situation that was only partly similar to the hypothetical situation in the OP.

Yes EXACTLY!

 

[Flyguy]

Dude, seriously. Take this bull**** to the other threads on it. No one gives a rats ass what your unfounded, uneducated opinion on mode of carry is. Get over it. WE get it. you're anti open carry. Anyone that open carries is an idiot looking for trouble/trying to attract attention/etc. We;ve heard this stupid bull**** a bajillion times before. E.N.O.U.G.H. for ****s sake.

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better.

Rep inbound.

 

[Indy317]

This is in regards to a post by Fenway, which in a video a guy mentions US v DeBerry. The police stopped a man due to an anonymous call that he was carrying a handgun. The 7th circuit ruled that the stop was legit, but only because it was in IL, if it would of been in TX, no go. Our carry laws are even more lenient than TX. So I would say in the opinion of the 7th circuit, we are good to go.

They can accost(consensual) you and ask for ID, but they cannot stop(non consensual) you and demand.
Link to the ruling.
And link to TX regs for a ccw

So what say you any atty and leos?

You are picking apart what you want to try and justify your conclusion. For example, some other relevant facts:
"But the tip and the gesture certainly justify the officer in drawing his own gun and detaining the gesturer until it can be determined whether in fact he has a gun."

So we have included in this case a "gesture," which was said to be "the man-DeBerry-took several steps backward, turned slightly to the side, and moved his hands as if he might be about to draw a gun."

Also, this case deals with an anonymous tip, when the officer arrived, the officer saw no gun. So when they discus the Texas angle, the same factors have to apply. So in Indiana, you would just be a person who was said to have a gun, has told an LEO "No" if asked if you had a gun. Now in Indiana, if the officer were to observe any or part of the handgun, they would have reasonable suspicion to detain for an investigation of carrying a handgun w/o a license.

 

[DadOfFour]

Has anyone ever tried showing them the LTCH and then just turning and walking away? All of this "am I being detained" questioning seems to invoke more discussion and questions from the officers from the videos and encounters I've seen/read about. It continues to waste time and actually detains you further from going on about your business.

If they are going to "detain" you then they would have to pro-actively do so if you just turn and walk after providing the legally required LTCH paperwork. Seems like the easier way to end the confrontation...and also a more difinitive way to establish a case if the police officer decides to persue and physically detain you.

You can try it, just realize that as soon as the Officer tells you to stop and you keep walking away you're going to get arrested for Resisting Law Enforcement.

IC 35-44-3-3
Resisting law enforcement; mandatory sentence
Sec. 3. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) forcibly resists, obstructs, or interferes with a law enforcement officer or a person assisting the officer while the officer is lawfully engaged in the execution of the officer's duties;
(2) forcibly resists, obstructs, or interferes with the authorized service or execution of a civil or criminal process or order of a court; or
(3) flees from a law enforcement officer after the officer has, by visible or audible means, including operation of the law enforcement officer's siren or emergency lights, identified himself or herself and ordered the person to stop;
commits resisting law enforcement, a Class A misdemeanor, except as provided in subsection (b).

 

[MikeDVB]

All of that is correct and you will certainly be identified, fingerprinted, etc. at jail as standard booking procedure. However, you are missing the point of these threads. We are looking for any ideas, no matter how BAD, impractical, far flung, ridiculous, arbitrary, etc.. so long as they are technically correct and you can cite either an IC code or case law that vaguely mentions a situation that was only partly similar to the hypothetical situation in the OP.

No, I understand the point - it just raised some questions of my own that were related enough to put them in this thread but not different enough to start a whole new thread for it.

I appreciate the answers.

 

[MikeDVB]

You can try it, just realize that as soon as the Officer tells you to stop and you keep walking away you're going to get arrested for Resisting Law Enforcement.

I think the idea is rather than standing there and talking to them and asking questions, trying to walk away. When they do say "stop," it would be best to do so.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I think the idea is rather than standing there and talking to them and asking questions, trying to walk away. When they do say "stop," it would be best to do so.

Yep, stop, look at them and say Am I being detained, am I free to go?

 

[24Carat]

I know everyone has their own opinions but I still don't understand the fascination with open carry. I've carried concealed for 28 years now. I prefer to be the man with a gun that nobody notices until something happens.
I don't need or want the attention and stares of people looking at my gun. I don't see the need to "stir the pot" just because I have the right to do so.
I also have the right to wear a Speedo and yell obscenities at my government leaders but I choose not to do either of those also.
Carry concealed and keep the element of surprise on your side instead of being the one with a bullseye on your chest that an idiot chooses to take out first because you're the only obvious threat to him and his plans.
Just my two cents.

Ever research the incidence Statewide/Nationwide of anyone OCing being shot in a preemptive manner by a BG? Other than unsubstantiated personal opinion like yours, I have found none. I am open to any you would find if your Google Fu happens to be better than mine.

 

[griffin]

Ever research the incidence Statewide/Nationwide of anyone OCing being shot in a preemptive manner by a BG?

But Ted Nugent says OCers will be the first targeted and murdered!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'd like to use this opportunity to point out that the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals owes me a case of .45acp for citing the law of Texas (which I believe, IIRC, was not implemented until later in 1996). I wonder if I have to pick it up or a U.S. Marshal will deliver?

 

[Bunnykid68]

I'd like to use this opportunity to point out that the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals owes me a case of .45acp for citing the law of Texas (which I believe, IIRC, was not implemented until later in 1996). I wonder if I have to pick it up or a U.S. Marshal will deliver?

You should just have Rhino pick it up for you.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I'd like to use this opportunity to point out that the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals owes me a case of .45acp for citing the law of Texas (which I believe, IIRC, was not implemented until later in 1996). I wonder if I have to pick it up or a U.S. Marshal will deliver?

Actually 2 cases. As I stated here. One for each justice.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/2967277-post23.html

And I know you don't give legal advice over the web, but what is your opinion of what I posted?

 

[KG1]

Has anyone ever tried showing them the LTCH and then just turning and walking away? All of this "am I being detained" questioning seems to invoke more discussion and questions from the officers from the videos and encounters I've seen/read about. It continues to waste time and actually detains you further from going on about your business.

If they are going to "detain" you then they would have to pro-actively do so if you just turn and walk after providing the legally required LTCH paperwork. Seems like the easier way to end the confrontation...and also a more difinitive way to establish a case if the police officer decides to persue and physically detain you.

If the LTCH was produced and they were to continue the questioning after I have asked "am I free to go" then I would say to them that from this point forward my presence here is not consensual and unless you can show further cause you are detaining me against my will.

If not then I will be on my way. Good day sir.

 

[opus1776]

Two questions.

2. Is Indiana and Texas in the same circuit?

Here is a pic for you of the circuits in the US:

======================================
"Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" K. Moss
You can NEVER be too rich or too thin.
Life is not a journey, but a series of unplanned detours...
Perfection: is not a goal---it's a demanded expectation.