Let us influence 10MM hunting in Indiana

[yotewacker]

Not enough ft/lbs of energy to do it quick and clean kill of a deer. I think a 44mag is the smallest that should be allowed.

P.S. I've always been told, do not sure a deer with less than 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.
So that limits a
1. 44 mag to 100 yards
2. 30-06 to 500 yards.
3. 308 to 600 yards.
4. 300 win mag 900 yards.
This is the most popular weights of bullets used.
A 10mm does not have enough muscle

 

[shibumiseeker]

Not enough ft/lbs of energy to do it quick and clean kill of a deer. I think a 44mag is the smallest that should be allowed.

P.S. I've always been told, do not sure a deer with less than 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.
So that limits a
1. 44 mag to 100 yards
2. 30-06 to 500 yards.
3. 308 to 600 yards.
4. 300 win mag 900 yards.
This is the most popular weights of bullets used.
A 10mm does not have enough muscle

But yet, as has been said numerous times in this thread, it has more muscle than several legal pistol rounds.

And every round you write except the .44mag is not legal in Indiana.

 

[yotewacker]

I was just trying to let people know how ft/lbs of energy works. I do not hunt deer in Indiana. Just predators. I'm not sure what all is Indiana legal for deer. when I did hunt deer in Indiana. I used a Browning auto-5 with a Hastings rifled barrel.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I was just trying to let people know how ft/lbs of energy works. I do not hunt deer in Indiana. Just predators. I'm not sure what all is Indiana legal for deer. when I did hunt deer in Indiana. I used a Browning auto-5 with a Hastings rifled barrel.

The problem is that ft-lbs is only one dimension of a multi-dimensional equation. Making a blanket statement regarding the energy level does a disservice, just look at bowhunting where the KE can be pretty low compared to bullets. Just as the blanket statement about which pistol is suitable for hunting and which are not.

ETA: Nice avatar, BTW, I am envious.

 

[yotewacker]

I'm sorry I was not referring to pistols. I did not read were we were only speaking of pistols. I was referring to rifles or carbines. I'm not a fan of pistol hunting such a large animal. To much chance of not having a quick clean kill. Been with my buddies who use pistols. 90% of the time, the deer runs a hundred yards or so. As for arrows. It's the same. I've shot several deer with a bow. Even a 396 pound black bear. But like a pistol. Very seldom do they just plop down and die. they will usually run a bit. Or with an arrow. They will scream from the pain. If you've have not heard the screams, you have not hunted much. I'm older, I hunt about 2 days a week. Killed my share of animals. It's only just, in mother nature, to make sure the kill is quick with no suffering. And I do not waste a kill for the pleasure of killing it. Other than crows and coyotes. I'm a defender of the Constitution, But hunting a pistol is just not humane hunting larger animals. ( any animal over 100 pounds)

thanks for liking my avatar. My hobbies are flying and hunting

 

[HK45Mark23]

Terry at Red Ghost said 12 gauge slugs guns are by far the most requested dear gun at his shop

 

[blackoak]

I'm sorry I was not referring to pistols. I did not read were we were only speaking of pistols. I was referring to rifles or carbines. I'm not a fan of pistol hunting such a large animal. To much chance of not having a quick clean kill. Been with my buddies who use pistols. 90% of the time, the deer runs a hundred yards or so. As for arrows. It's the same. I've shot several deer with a bow. Even a 396 pound black bear. But like a pistol. Very seldom do they just plop down and die. they will usually run a bit. Or with an arrow. They will scream from the pain. If you've have not heard the screams, you have not hunted much. I'm older, I hunt about 2 days a week. Killed my share of animals. It's only just, in mother nature, to make sure the kill is quick with no suffering. And I do not waste a kill for the pleasure of killing it. Other than crows and coyotes. I'm a defender of the Constitution, But hunting a pistol is just not humane hunting larger animals. ( any animal over 100 pounds)

thanks for liking my avatar. My hobbies are flying and hunting

I have never heard any critter "scream in pain" from being shot with an arrow and I have been shooting them with arrows for 37 years. Exactly what do you mean by this?

 

[HK45Mark23]

Handgun is legal in Indiana, so is 357. 10mm is identical if not more powerful than 357. There are hunting options in 10mm as far as ammo and firearms go.

The 10mm is a medium game cartridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Performance
The 10mm Auto falls between the .357 Magnum and the .41 Magnum in muzzle energy for popular loadings. With certain JHP bullets, these energy levels may produce an effect known as hydrostatic shock in living targets.[12][13][14][15][16][17][18] The existence of this phenomenon has been questioned, however.[19][20][21] Some commercial loadings are as follows: .357 Mag: 584 ft·lbf (792 J) for 125 gr (8.1 g) @ 1,450 ft/s (440 m/s); 10 mm: 750 ft·lbf (1,020 J) for 200 gr (13 g) @ 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s);[22] .41 Mag: 788 ft·lbf (1,068 J) for 210 gr (14 g) @ 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s). The 10 mm load given is about maximum for SAAMI established pressure levels, while the .357 and especially the .41 Magnums are commonly handloaded to significantly higher levels than these samples. Recoil energy of full-power loads is also comparable, being 9.4, 12.4, and 15.6 ft·lbf (21.2 J) respectively for these loads (computed using the same powder and weight of gun). The 10mm Auto may be used for deer or other medium game at short range.

Usage
The 10mm Auto is suitable for hunting medium-sized game at moderate ranges, is certainly more than adequate for defensive or tactical use, and is one of the few true semi-automatic, rimless cartridges that is legal for hunting whitetail deer in many US states.

 

[HK45Mark23]

Ammoguide.com shows this hand load at the 840 ft. lbs. E. range.
155 gr. 1561 fps. 839 ft. lbs. E.

 

[RelicHound]

Terry at Red Ghost said 12 gauge slugs guns are by far the most requested dear gun at his shop

here in the southern part of the state I dont see why anyone would need anything more than a 12ga slug gun..plenty of range for the types of conditions we have here and is more than enough to put a deer down for good. a god 20 or 12ga shotgun or muzzle loader is perfect for this area{I dont know what the northern part of the state is like..maybe less hilly?}...guess I dont see the reason to hunt with a pistol cal rifle. hunting with a pistol is great..buts thats a whole different ball game.

 

[HK45Mark23]

I am merely advocating the 10mm to a legal status in Indiana as it is so in many other states.

I am in souther Indiana as well, Vanderburgh, Warrick and Posey counties.

 

[yotewacker]

Go to Kentucky to hunt. Any center fire cartridge is acceptable for deer hunting.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Go to Kentucky to hunt. Any center fire cartridge is acceptable for deer hunting.

Kinda hard to move my 150 acres to Kentucky just to hunt

 

[yotewacker]

Sorry, thought you were hunting on public land.

 

[HK45Mark23]

We have a large family farm in Sturgis Kentucky, but that is not Indiana. All of my family and I hunt there. I also have friends and family who own farm land in Indiana. My friends and family live much closer than Sturgis Kentucky.

 

[kingnereli]

You`re comparing Apple ( ligter recoiling 40 S&W ) to Oranges ( heavier recoiling 10mm) again.
Why don`t you give it a rest and just survey deer hunters ( not wannabe deer hunters ) and see what they want to hunt with.

I"m going to need you to explain this one to me. It seem that you are saying that the amount of recoil affects inherent accuracy. Surely you are not saying that, are you? The post you quoted was HK talking about his ability and his glock's accuracy. Heavier recoil only means marginally slower follow up shots.

While a stop sign is larger then dear vitals, HK's example of a stock G27 lends itself to a reasonable conclusion that a properly set up G20 is plenty accurate at dear hunting distances.

Again, you are simply making unsupported claims based on an irrational bias against semi-auto handguns for hunting purposes. It is one thing to say that you view handgun hunting unfavorably. It is something different altogether to continually make unsupported claims contrary to evidence.

 

[IronHorseman]

I"m going to need you to explain this one to me. It seem that you are saying that the amount of recoil affects inherent accuracy. Surely you are not saying that, are you? The post you quoted was HK talking about his ability and his glock's accuracy. Heavier recoil only means marginally slower follow up shots.

While a stop sign is larger then dear vitals, HK's example of a stock G27 lends itself to a reasonable conclusion that a properly set up G20 is plenty accurate at dear hunting distances.

Again, you are simply making unsupported claims based on an irrational bias against semi-auto handguns for hunting purposes. It is one thing to say that you view handgun hunting unfavorably. It is something different altogether to continually make unsupported claims contrary to evidence.

A gun is under recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle. The shooters abilty to control that recoil ( jump angle in target shooting terminology) affects accuracy.

 

[yotewacker]

I own a farm close to Tompkinsville, KY. I hunt there quite often Many friends give me quite a few places to hunt in Indiana.

 

[IronHorseman]

I own a farm close to Tompkinsville, KY. I hunt there quite often Many friends give me quite a few places to hunt in Indiana.

It`s a small world, my grandparents are burried there. I have a large amount of relatives in Monroe and Baron counties.

 

[HK45Mark23]

A gun is under recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle. The shooters abilty to control that recoil ( jump angle in target shooting terminology) affects accuracy.

If your statement was true then the US military snipers using the Barrett m82 a1and a3 .50 calibers would never hit their target. It is a semi auto and can hit with authority out at range and accurately

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82

The M82 is a short recoil semi-automatic firearm. When the gun is fired, the barrel initially recoils for a short distance (about 1 in/25 mm) being securely locked by the rotating bolt. After the short travel, a post on the bolt engaged in the curved cam track in the receiver turns the bolt to unlock it from the barrel. As soon as the bolt unlocks, the accelerator arm strikes it back, transferring part of the recoil energy of the barrel to the bolt to achieve reliable cycling. Then the barrel is stopped and the bolt continues back, to extract and eject a spent case.

Maximum effective range: 1,800 m (5,900 ft)
Expected accuracy: Sub-MOA with match ammo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_pistol

During the recoil stroke, the barrel moves rearward initially locked together with the slide approximately 3 mm (0.12 in) until the bullet leaves the barrel and chamber pressure drops to a safe level. A ramped lug extension at the base of the barrel then interacts with a tapered locking block integrated into the frame, forcing the barrel down and unlocking it from the slide. This camming action terminates the barrel's movement while the slide continues back under recoil, extracting and ejecting the spent cartridge casing. The slide's uninterrupted rearward movement and counter-recoil cycle are characteristic of the Browning system.

It all comes down to proper technique.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Marksmanship

Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship

Breath Control

Oxygen deficit leads to an unsteady hold as the muscles require more oxygenated blood. Therefore, the trigger should be pressed at a point in the respiration cycle (inhale, hold, exhale) when the shooter is steadiest. Various techniques work for different individuals: usually after exhaling half a breath or exhaling the entire breath. Since it is almost impossible to measure half a breath with consistency, the latter technique is most popular.

Support

The rifle is held at two points: with the firing hand and with the support hand. The firing hand not only grasps the portion of the stock around the trigger group, but exerts steady rearward pressure into the “pocket” of the shoulder. The support elbow is held directly under the rifle, without a hard grip by the hand which may introduce lateral “wobble”.

Cheek Weld

Consistency in sighting begins with proper “cheek weld”, positioning the cheek at the same place along the stock. Besides fore and aft placement of the “weld”, it also determines the height of the eyes in relation to the sights or scope.

Natural Point of Aim

Every marksman has a natural point of aim (NPOA), the optimum position of the body in any shooting stance. For instance, in prone, the shooter aligns himself with the target in such a manner that his sights rest comfortably on the bull’s eye without excessive muscular tension to maintain a desired sight picture. The position may be “fine tuned” by subtle movement of the arms, elbows, or feet. NPOA can easily be checked by finding a comfortable position with sights properly aligned, then closing both eyes. Inhale and exhale. When the eyes are opened, the sight picture should remain unchanged. If not, adjust as necessary.

Sight Alignment

With metallic sights, proper alignment places the front sight post squarely within the “notch” of the rear (square) sight. The top of the front sight should remain even with the top of the rear sight, with equal “daylight” on either side of the front site within the notch. If the rear sight is a circular aperture or “ghost ring”, the front sight should be centered in relation to the circle. When shooting at longer distances, the rear sight will be elevated to compensate for the bullet’s ballistic “drop”, but the sight picture should always remain the same. Make everything consistent.
With optical sights, such as telescopes, proper alignment is obtained when there is no dark portion or “shadow” at any point in the circumference of the field of view. This will ensure that you are always sighting through the center of the scope.

Sight Picture

Sight picture is the placement of the sights (properly aligned) in relation to the target. In most formal competition, the desired sight picture is the front post tangent to the bottom of the bull’s eye, yielding a “six o’clock hold”. The six o’clock is almost universally preferred to placing the front sight at the intended point of impact in the center of the target because the resultant picture is inevitably inconsistent.

Trigger Release

Trigger release is commonly considered the easiest aspect of marksmanship to explain and the most difficult to accomplish. A perfect release or “break” results from pressing the trigger straight back (usually with the pad of the trigger finger, not at the first joint) with no lateral pressure. It should occur at an instant when the shooter does not expect the rifle to discharge, resulting in a “surprise break” that is immune to anticipation or “flinch” that disturbs the sight picture.

Follow Through

Follow through is important in developing consistency. While the bullet leaves the rifle’s barrel within milli-seconds of ignition, the shooter benefits from “staying on the sights” in order to determine where the round likely struck. With experience, shooters can tell with extreme precision whether the round likely struck the center of the target or elsewhere—typically low and left for a right-handed person.

http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=glock_faq_shooting_technique_and_practice

What are the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship?
Thank you MakeMineA10mm for contributing this excellent article.

Pistol Marksmanship Fundamentals

1. Stance

Your stance must be steady and comfortable so that you do not become fatigued too easily. There are several popular styles including isosceles and Weaver, but any stable, comfortable position will do. You should use both hands. In the Weaver stance, you can use your weak hand to pull back while pushing forward with your strong hand. This is called isometric tension and greatly aids in rapid shooting, shooting a heavy-recoiling handgun, and proper stability. You should practice your stance at home with an unloaded pistol during dry-fire practice.


2. Grip

Believe it or not, many people do not think about how to grip a handgun. For an auto pistol especially, the grip makes a big difference.


With your fingers and thumb making an "L", place your strong hand as high up on the grip as is comfortably possible. The apex of the web of your hand should be centered at the rearmost point of the curve in the gun's backstrap. This makes sure you are not gripping the gun too far, or not far enough, around the grip. The forefinger should rest naturally along the side of the frame above the trigger and the other three fingers should wrap easily around the frontstrap of the grip. The strong-hand thumb may either be in a "high" or "low" position. Caution must be used in both of these positions. Too low a position may actuate the magazine release, dumping your mag unintentionally. Too high a position may induce stoppages by unintentionally dragging your thumb on the slide as it cycles.


Your weak hand, in the Weaver position, should wrap naturally around your strong hand with all of the fingers below the trigger guard. Your weak hand thumb should lay over the top of your strong hand thumb to form a cross ("+").


Both elbows should be slightly bent, but both wrists must be locked. The strong hand should be pushing forward slightly, and the weak hand should be pulling back slightly.


3. Sight alignment

Sights on most auto pistols consist of a square front post or ramp and a rear "U" notch. Simply centering the front post in the rear U with an even amount of light on both sides of the front post inside the rear notch and with their tops level, will give you all the accuracy you need out to 100 yds or so. At closer ranges (25 yards and less), perfect sight alignment is not necessary. If the front sight is on target and the rear sight is within close alignment, you will hit very close to the front sight's position. Do not make the common mistake of watching the target. The focus of your eyes should be entirely on the front sight. You will get a chance to look at your target later.


When shooting the target, if other conditions are within your acceptable limits, imperfect sight alignment should not stop you from taking a shot. When we get to trigger control, you will see that the moment, when the trigger "breaks" and the weapon fires, should be a surprise to you. If everyone was expected to hold a pistol in absolutely perfect sight alignment throughout the entire trigger squeeze in order to hit the target, no one would ever pull the trigger. So, know what the sights are supposed to look like when in proper alignment, and strive to keep them lined up as close as possible to that "perfect" sight picture, but, more importantly, watch the front sight and keep it on the target you want to hit.


4. Breath Control

Breathing control is much less important in pistol shooting than in rifle, however, it is still important enough to cause a miss, especially at long range (25 yards or more). Proper breath control is often difficult to accomplish when shooting pistol, because there is a greater demand for oxygen by our bodies. Usually we are standing up and holding a pistol up at almost the end of arm's reach, and sometimes we've been running/moving, etc., etc. All these activities demand more oxygen, so we breathe heavier. Proper breath control is to take several (usually 3) deep breaths and then take in a fourth and hold it or slightly let it out while squeezing the trigger. This is usually not possible when shooting a pistol. Due to the movement of the shooter's arms and body, a perfect sight picture that would be disturbed by improper breath control is impossible anyway. Therefore, the best method in pistol shooting is to keep breathing, but to control the breaths so that chest movements do not aggravate the amount of movement already created by the arms. I advocate taking deep controlled breaths while moving, drawing, getting behind cover, etc., and then going to "baby breaths" while actually aiming and squeezing the trigger.


5. Trigger Squeeze

There is a wide variety of trigger "feels" available today, from traditional double/single action to double-action only, and Glock's "safe-action". Each of these requires a slightly different trigger technique. The most difficult to master is the traditional double/single action. The transition from the first shot's double-action to the remaining shots' single-action requires the shooter to learn and master two different trigger techniques and to transition between them after the first shot. The easiest trigger to learn and master is the Glock's. It is the lightest version of the double-action-only trigger, and the lack of levers and buttons makes transitioning revolver shooters to autos easiest on the Glock.


The key to trigger control is a steady press of the trigger. The trigger finger should slip into the trigger guard from its "safety" position on the frame only when you are ready to shoot. Otherwise, it stays out of the trigger guard along the side of the frame. One must guard against "slapping" the trigger, however. Once you notice contact with the trigger, go to the smooth rolling motion described below. Once inside the trigger guard, the area on the pad of the forefinger between the center of the pad and the first knuckle should touch the trigger. Having the trigger touched by the center of the pad or down in the crevice of the first joint of the finger will cause the gun to pull to the left or right and slightly down instead of staying exactly where the sights were aligned. (Other than flinching, this is the most common cause of misses.) The trigger press should be a smooth rearward steady rolling motion. Watch the front sight and align it with the target while the trigger is being pressed. One must guard against squeezing with the entire hand. The action of your finger against the trigger should be totally independent of the movement of the rest of your hand. When the trigger reaches the point where the trigger releases the firing mechanism, the shooter will feel a sudden release of tension on the trigger. This is the trigger's "break". This moment should come as a surprise, especially on single-action mode. You should be able to "call" your shot by remembering where the front sight was on the target, the moment the trigger breaks.


Practice your trigger control by dry-firing your pistol at home. Use a target on the wall. Make sure the pistol is unloaded (check it three times after you've put all ammunition in another room)!! Then, practice all of these points while aiming at your "target". Never dry-fire more than 50 to 100 times in each session. Take a break and relax, then go back to dry-firing. Re-read this instruction sheet during your break, and try to recognize any mistakes you are making. Concentrate on fixing them when you do the next session, but keep in mind all these points. 300 dry-fires a day will get you ready to shoot at the end of the week... (Yes, that's 1500 dry-fires!) You cannot dry-fire too much. Just make sure to concentrate on these fundamentals, and as soon as you feel fatigued or recognize that you can't do each one of these fundamentals every time you dry-fire, stop and take a break!


Summary

There are a lot of details of marksmanship fundamentals here, but the entire list can be boiled down to: "Front Sight, Press." Focusing on the front sight and good trigger control are the essentials that are absolutely required to shoot well. The others are needed to make you into a great shot, but to even begin to be a good/passable shot, you MUST master, front sight, and trigger press.


Safety Rules to always keep in mind:
1. All guns are always loaded. Even when you just unloaded them, treat them as if they're loaded.
2. Never point a gun at something that you're not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger except when ready to shoot.
4. Watch what is in the background of your target in case you miss, and what is going to stop the bullet if you fire?
[MakeMineA10mm]</SPAN>

Maybe you can learn how to actually hit your target after practice, as to prevent the excessive recoil from affecting your shot.

What a bunch of horse pucky to actually state that the recoil affects the accuracy, it does affect wimpy people who are afraid of the gun, but not the experienced seasoned shooter.

If you are afraid of the gun and shooting then you may flinch and or anticipate the shot, this does affect accuracy, but a properly trained and practiced shooter it does not.

None of this affects the viability of the 10mm as a hunting cartridge. It is again conjecture by those who are ignorant and opinionated.