Letter from Sen. Jim Tomes

[Titanium_Frost]

The meetings are held at the Westside Sportsman's club. They start about 6-6:30 with a pot luck supper at about 7:00. The club is on Peerless road with the drive just north of the RR tracks. If you're coming in or out on the Lloyd turn north at the light at Schutte Rd. (Just east of the USI overpass). I think Schutte becomes Peerless at Hogue Rd. Anyway, continue north until you come to the tracks and just turn in West. If you get there much past 6:30 you'll probably have to stand because this meeting will have US rep Buschon, Lloyd Winneke and hopefully Mr. TF himself!! And yes, there are always a few OC people there.

I plan to be there, sounds like I better get there early. Maybe I will make my famous Harvest Potatoes. Potatoes, butter, red onions, and BACON...

 

[jedi]

Not coming down on cjamie, but the logic of this, along with the quote from the other legislator in Sen. Tomes letter is ridiculous. People claim that we shouldn't OC, because it will make people nervous and then it will get banned. As BOR said, "If we don't OC, or CAN'T OC, what is the difference?" Is someone going to come out one day and declare OC socially acceptable, and we may resume it? We need to go about our business, and put pressure on the legislators to stop any kind of anti-OC bill that comes up. Keeping the gun concealed so that they don't ban open carry makes absolutely NO sense.

You need to also keep note of what occured in California earlier this year.
In CA is was [1] legal to OC and unloaded holstered handgun. CA gunowners began to do OC events, LEOs would be called, etc. & the meda got windo of it, next thing you know the CA legislatures are passing a new law to banned OC.

Here is what I found so far:
Bill List

The Bill started in the CA House and it passed, went to the CA senate where it appears to have passed as well and was sent to the CA governor YESTERDAY!!!!! 21 SEP 2011

[1] I can't find if the CA Govenor signed the bill into law or not making OC
illagel.


NRA-ILA :: Open Carry Ban Bill Passes California Assembly and Goes to the Senate Public Safety Committee

So what started out as a push for OC and gun awareness backfired on gunowners in CA and now it looks like they won't even have OC of UNLOADED weapons.

 

[WebHobbit]

I plan to be there, sounds like I better get there early. Maybe I will make my famous Harvest Potatoes. Potatoes, butter, red onions, and BACON...

Are WSSC meetings open to anyone or do you belong to RR and WSSC?

 

[Indy317]

I figured OC would eventually get the ax. The fact is that folks will never be "comfortable" with non-LEOs carrying guns around that...gasp...can be seen. They would just rather the guns be hidden, for whatever reason.

What is going to hurt OC is the lawsuit issue. I figure that in most cases, OC will be what gets the cops called, and people will be asked to leave, seeing $$$ due to the new law, they will comply then immediately contact a lawyer for their payday. That is just how it goes when you have a bad economy and the state government basically encouraging lawsuits against the locals. Now you are going to have all elected leaders of municipalities, all the cops, and all the frightened people having one goal: Make OC out in public illegal.

30 years ago you would never see the word "gay" in a mainstream newspaper, let alone "queer." Now we have gay marriages, gays openly in the military, and TV shows with titles like "Queer Eye..." How did that change come about? By constant "in your face" action by groups like "Queer Nation." Don't mistake, I don't necessarily agree with their objective, but you can't deny their effectiveness.

Effectiveness? States have banned gay marriage, some have even banned the concept of civil unions and extending similar rights to gays.

Alienating OCers, accusing them of not supporting the Bill, and calling what they are planning a "school yard prank" was insulting. Period.

He could have chose his words more carefully, instead, he bashed a portion of his constituency.

I think he bashed them, but I think he was calling it like he sees it. Face it, some folks like to exercise/protect their rights by pulling "all eyes on me" stunts. These stunts can sometimes backfire. I would imagine it is irritating to people like him who have the means to really make change, and when he ask for folks to pack the statehouse, only a handful of people show up. Look at what the unions were able to do this year for their cause. We have somewhere close to 300K people with licenses to carry. We should have had at least 10% down there supporting this guy and others like him. Instead, people want to strap on AR-15s and walk around downtown Indy, go to a zoo with guns on their hips, etc.. I can see where he is coming from. He reads these forums and sees more people willing to go for the silly, in your face, 'we're here, see our guns!" stuff instead of showing up at the statehouse and maybe it upsets him?

 

[mrortega]

I plan to be there, sounds like I better get there early. Maybe I will make my famous Harvest Potatoes. Potatoes, butter, red onions, and BACON...

Are you going to OC that food in

 

[loganathompson]

in my personal opinion, and by the way i voted for sen. Tomes and appreciate the things he helped to pass. BUT-it seems to me that was is right is what is right.....i saw his interview with one of our local tv stations, and he said something to the effect of, "we hear alot about our rights, our rights....but what we dont consider is our responsibilities.." now, if you support the law then you support the law. he sounded like he was saying as a senator of the state of indiana that peoples fears SHOULD be able to trump the law. the law is the law. i dont agree with alot of laws in this state/country but my convictions dont trump the law. if it did then unborn babies wouldnt be snuffed out by abortion. and after all, he was so strong and vocal and steadfast 2A supporter when he was running, it just seems like he is falling into the "how to play the game" wisdom. what has that ever won us? he shouldve stated the law, that the city of evansville was in the wrong in the first place and left it at that. im not throwing him under the bus, his comments in that interview clip just concern me....i will vote for him again as it stands today, but i am dissapointed.

 

[mrortega]

Are WSSC meetings open to anyone or do you belong to RR and WSSC?

The meeting is open to everybody, even liberals!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I figured OC would eventually get the ax.

Not happening. There hasn't been a single proposal and any proposal would be stomped flat.

The fact is that folks will never be "comfortable" with non-LEOs carrying guns around that...gasp...can be seen.

Until they start seeing more and more non-LEO carrying guns. Who care if people are "comfortable" or not with my rights? Does this extend to people uncomfortable with certain races or religions?

That is just how it goes when you have a bad economy and the state government basically encouraging lawsuits against the locals. Now you are going to have all elected leaders of municipalities, all the cops, and all the frightened people having one goal: Make OC out in public illegal.

What's this? Police blaming the victims? Where I have heard this today? Oh, yeah, from LEOs in court today.

Stupid silly girls won't wear long skirts and we waste valuable police resources taking those calls; we'll pass a law to make women wear proper clothing!

Look, gun owners are the victims here of out of control governments that would rather break the law than to tell Sally Soccer Mommie to forget it that the man with the gun is exercising a civil right.

My rights aren't the problem, government is.

States have banned gay marriage, some have even banned the concept of civil unions and extending similar rights to gays.

The states aren't doing well as homosexuals are obtaining rights rapidly.

As Professor Glenn Reynolds says, the courts will not go where the culture has not. Look at Bowers v. Hardwick and then Larry v. Tejas. Big cultural shift=big expansion of sodomy rights.

The analogy is entirely applicable to open carrying. 1. Nothing illegal about open carry, in fact it is protected by law and by the courts. 2. If Sally Soccer Mommie is upset by open carrying (or black people) too bad, we just need to resolve to open carry more.

would imagine it is irritating to people like him who have the means to really make change, and when he ask for folks to pack the statehouse, only a handful of people show up.

No doubt a valid criticism.

If anything has come of this hopefully it shows INGO then when you gain ground, you counterattack.

 

[mrortega]

in my personal opinion, and by the way i voted for sen. Tomes and appreciate the things he helped to pass. BUT-it seems to me that was is right is what is right.....i saw his interview with one of our local tv stations, and he said something to the effect of, "we hear alot about our rights, our rights....but what we dont consider is our responsibilities.." now, if you support the law then you support the law. he sounded like he was saying as a senator of the state of indiana that peoples fears SHOULD be able to trump the law. the law is the law. i dont agree with alot of laws in this state/country but my convictions dont trump the law. if it did then unborn babies wouldnt be snuffed out by abortion. and after all, he was so strong and vocal and steadfast 2A supporter when he was running, it just seems like he is falling into the "how to play the game" wisdom. what has that ever won us? he shouldve stated the law, that the city of evansville was in the wrong in the first place and left it at that. im not throwing him under the bus, his comments in that interview clip just concern me....i will vote for him again as it stands today, but i am dissapointed.

My interpretation of everything Jim has said is, "We have won some great victories, there will be more fights (getting IN law in line with Federal so license holders can carry on school property??) lets not wake up the sleeping bull, stick a sword into him and wave the red flag at him. Let's continue gradually gaining ground." My words only.

 

[pudly]

I believe that trying to follow the in-your-face methods of the gay community will not work for us. Yes, you can argue that they are both about civil rights, but there is one key difference- the media lens.

Hollywood isn't presenting gun owners as good guys who just want to protect themselves and their families and occassionally can intervene to stop the bad guy. They don't portay women successfully defending themselves from rape. The news talks about people robbing and killing, not defending themselves (often without firing a shot). The images are overwhelmingly negative and communicate that only police and criminals have guns.

When was the last time you saw popular media portray gays in a negative light? The media supports gay rights and will be more supportive of gay protests. We cannot count on their assistance. Actually, newspapers have already published and identified gun owners in order to harass them. Think they would publish a list of gays in your neighborhood "in the public interest" or because the public has the "right to know"?

No. we will not be treated the same and cannot assume the same methods would work in our favor.

 

[sbcman]

Folks, calling out Sen. Tomes is uncalled-for. He knows the amount of work he put into these bills and is understandably protective of them. In addition, as others have said, he knows that SEA 292 and many of our other protections of our rights are only tenuously present in law; bills that restrict our rights are far, far easier to pass.
Consider it in the terms of parents and children. (Stop. I'm well aware that they are our employees, not our parents, and that we are not children. The attitude amongst many people in power seems to be a parental one. I'm not saying it's right, only that it exists. Clear? Good.) When a parent grants a privilege to a child, say, staying up an extra half-hour at night, if the child conforms to that bedtime, the parent is not likely to rescind it. However, if the child does the whole 'give him an inch, he'll take a mile" thing, he'll be back to his earlier bedtime very quickly.

Having re-read the letter he sent, I see that he's talking about the planning of an OC event, not about the mere act of someone OCing. It comes across as "see what I can do, and you can't stop me! Nyah nyah!" and I agree that doing that would be tremendously detrimental to the cause of expanding our ability to exercise our rights freely.

I strongly suggest people review and consider very thoroughly the record that Jim has built over lots of years and at great personal and financial cost to himself. He's no fair-weather friend, but rather a good and true advocate for our issues, and I'm proud to call him a personal friend as well.

Blessings,
Bill

This is good to hear because folks like myself, who don't know him and have just recently read his positions came away with a very divided view on where he really stands. It would help us if the good senator also published a position on the actions of the EPD, reminding them that enforcing the law is no game, as well as how certainly irritated he must be at their actions that violate a law he worked tirelessly to get passed.

I plan to be there, sounds like I better get there early. Maybe I will make my famous Harvest Potatoes. Potatoes, butter, red onions, and BACON...

OK, I had no intentions of coming to this meeting, but I might have to now. Not because your going to be there but because those potatoes sound mighty tasty

 

[Kirk Freeman]

the media lens

You do acknowledge that we are making gains DESPITE what the media thinks of us?

Besides, who cares what the dying media thinks of us? They did not stop us in the past and cannot stop us in the power in the future as their breathe draws more and more shallow.

 

[sbcman]

Are you going to OC that food in

TF- please OC it, CC'ing those potatoes would make me loose my appetite

 

[KG1]

My take on this and has alway's been is that I don't need any OC events with big turnouts to exercise my right. I OC when I feel like it or CC when I don't and act like I do any other time and just go about my business. I attend an OC event any time I step out the door and live my everyday life.This is how I choose to participate and how I contribute to the cause for 2nd amendment rights. It's a pretty simple concept really.

 

[ryknoll3]

You need to also keep note of what occured in California earlier this year.
In CA is was [1] legal to OC and unloaded holstered handgun. CA gunowners began to do OC events, LEOs would be called, etc. & the meda got windo of it, next thing you know the CA legislatures are passing a new law to banned OC.

Here is what I found so far:
Bill List

The Bill started in the CA House and it passed, went to the CA senate where it appears to have passed as well and was sent to the CA governor YESTERDAY!!!!! 21 SEP 2011

[1] I can't find if the CA Govenor signed the bill into law or not making OC
illagel.


NRA-ILA :: Open Carry Ban Bill Passes California Assembly and Goes to the Senate Public Safety Committee

So what started out as a push for OC and gun awareness backfired on gunowners in CA and now it looks like they won't even have OC of UNLOADED weapons.

This isn't actually a bad thing for CA residents. This was probably the best thing that could happen for them in regards to the ability to carry LOADED weapons. ('cuz we all know an unloaded weapon is useless) Prior court decisions about CC were dismissed on the grounds that the people DID have a legal way to exercise their 2A rights, and unloaded OC was sufficient for that. They can now go to court and claim that they have NO way to exercise their 2A right unless they belong to the privileged class. One of the arguments being made by the Illinois AG on why CC is unnecessary is because Illinois allows open carry in unincorporated areas (according to the AG).

I'm not a big fan of demonstrations, but the other senator in Sen. Tomes letter was not basing his complaint about OC on an OC-awareness event that hasn't happened yet. He's basing it on this single person who was hassled at the zoo.

So, what's the answer. No one should OC because it offends people and they might push to make OC illegal? What good is having OC if we shouldn't use it?

 

[pudly]

You do acknowledge that we are making gains DESPITE what the media thinks of us?

Besides, who cares what the dying media thinks of us? They did not stop us in the past and cannot stop us in the power in the future as their breathe draws more and more shallow.

Oh I absolutely acknowledge that progress against strong headwinds, but do you acknowledge that the media weighs in heavily against gun ownership? Don't oversell the death of the MSM. I'm as happy as anyone that they no longer have a stranglehold on the information stream, but they still have a outsized influence. Despite your quote, they will never die as a substantial part of the population does buy what they peddle.

BTW, 2A progress has come most directly via pro-2A legislators (like Senator Tomes) and lawyers (lika Alan Gura), with strong support by 2A groups and the public. For that reason, I'll give those key people a major benefit of the doubt when they specify what will help or hurt the cause.

PS: If you don't think that the media bias continues to have a major influence on the public and our government, then you might want to check out: Left Turn: How Liberal Media Bias Distorts the American Mind

 

[templar223]

While I hope this is not true of Sen. Tomes I fear it is beginning to show.

Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best.
~ Edward Abbey

and

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.
~ Lord Acton

You fear what is beginning to show in Jim, Mr. "Jedi"?

That he's being corrupted in the capital?

That's insulting, sir.

Jim Tomes has done more for the 2A in IN than most anyone here. In fact, he's probably done more and continues to do more than 99% of of gun rights advocates across America.

I know Jim personally and he's one heck of a stand-up guy. You couldn't ask for a more pro-liberty, pro-gun guy.

More importantly, he's intelligent as well.

He's trying to tell some of the reactionary purists to cool their jets and he's telling them why.

Like him, I'm not sure they'll get the message. This open carry party some of these [reactionary purists] are considering will have implications well beyond Evansville, and potentially even beyond Indiana altogether.

I'll give you an example: When involved in the negotiations to get Illinois' carry bill passed this spring, there was some give and take to secure the votes we needed to make a deal happen.

Yes, for those who know and understand, politics is a dirty game of compromises. You can be morally and mentally pure, but you'll leave empty-handed almost everytime with that attitude.

Anyway, one particular legislator who shall remain nameless, wanted to insert a ban on carry in libraries, because, at the time, the bill under consideration was both an open carry as well as a "substantially concealed" bill.

I asked, "Why does XXXXX have such an interest in libraries of all places?"

Todd Vandermyde, the NRA's guy in IL who spearheaded this entire process told me, "Well, some library group is in his district and they are scared to death some open carry advocates are gonna have an open carry demonstration at their member libraries *like they did in Michigan* a while back."

I'm pretty sure it was Michigan, but the point is that being aggressive (or obnoxious from some folks' point of view) in open carry advocacy has its time, place and manner. If done poorly it also has its very negative fallout.

There's nothing wrong with open carry. I do it myself when in IN, especially in summer months, but I'm not a jerk about it and I use common sense.

John Boch
President
Guns Save Life

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you don't think that the media bias continues to have a major influence on the public and our government, then you might want to check out

No doubt the media is biased but they are dying. Thanks for the book recommendation.

 

[KG1]

I've never been a big proponent of an organized knee jerk reaction OC event of the "shove it back in your face" kind. If I were ever to consider attending an event I would be more inclined to lean toward a more productive type of deal like the one Kirk presented and not one affiliated or motivated by an incident such as the one at the zoo. Other than that just get out there and exercise your right on your own and carry as you choose.

 

[pudly]

No doubt the media is biased but they are dying. Thanks for the book recommendation.

You are welcome. Here is a video version (1/2 hour, but quite interesting):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1EQiKq_J1s