Life cycle of .308 LC brass vs other mfg

[ForceTA308]

I'm curious to hear if anyone sees more life out of lake city brass than others when reloading. I was going through some tonight and can't believe how heavy it seems compared to Winchester (for example). Reloading for a couple of bolt guns and stop use when I start to see any signs of fatigue or pending failure, but I seem to get more life out of the LC.

 

[sloughfoot]

It depends on how hard you work it out of your bolt gun. I prefer Winchester for my long range 308 Palma bolt gun and LC for my M1A. Our priorities are probably totally different.

 

[MAG58]

It depends on how hard you work it out of your bolt gun.

This is absolutely the key. People running F/TR out to 1000yds will probably not have the same life expectancy out of their cases as someone who's loading some mild loads to plink with, but at the same time if you're reloading for an HK91 I doubt you'd have great case life regardless.

I have some older LC Match brass that I've been using in my M70 in 308 and it's been holding up pretty well, I'd say I'm rolling up on anneal #2 for these cases which means I'm probably in the 10 reload ballpark (I'd have to go check) and I'm having no problems with primer pockets loosening up or separation. I will say my loads are relatively warm, but not nipping on the heels of max or anything like that.

It does seem to be out lasting my win cases currently, but with that said, I switched over to the LC match cases since I got a pretty good number of them before I really had a chance to beat up the win cases, so I really don't feel experienced enough to make that decision.

 

[red_zr24x4]

I've only been loading .308 for a couple of years so no real experience, But I've been loading 30-06 for an M1 since 1995.
Now I load on the lighter end of the scale as to not beat my Garands up. From what I've noticed commercial brass tends to split the neck sooner and LC brass tends to develop loose primer pockets first.
I have some brass with probably 15 loads on it, I've never annealed any of my brass. I will say shooting semi auto's I tend to lose my brass before I notice any problems out of it.

 

[CountryBoy19]

If you are using the same brass in the same gun you can neck-size only. If you are doing neck-size only, you will not "kill" your brass in your lifetime unless you are shooting a crazy amount.

Shibumiseeker and I did a fairly involved brass life test using my Remington 700 rifle, factory once-fired R-P brass (fired from the same rifle). We did 4 different groups: Neck-size not-annealed, neck-size annealed, full-length size not-annealed, and full length size annealed.

BOTH of the neck-size only batches of brass (5 pieces of brass in each batch) lasted over an average of 120 firings IIRC. The longest a piece lasted was neck-size only not-annealed that lasted over 150 firings.

Now, to put that in perspective, even the most conservative reloader, that only loads the bare-minimum # of cartridges at a time has 100 pieces of brass for that cartridge. If you load to a conservative 100 reload limit per case you have 10,000 reloads which is enough to require a rebarrel on a .308, so at that time you can replace your brass too.

Does it matter who manufactures the brass? Yes and no. As long as your primer pocket holds shape the brass will outlast your barrel. We didn't have any primer pocket issues with the R-P brass. But many people report that FC (federal) brass is soft and the primer pockets often give out early. LC (Lake City) is now operated by Federal Cartridge Company on contract and they may or may-not be using their brass alloy formulation for the LC headstamped cartridges. If they are using their alloy formulation I would be very leary of brass-life due to primer pocket issues.

So is LC brass better than others? Maybe It depends on a LOT of factors, most of which you would have to give us. Are you neck-sizing? What other processes are you doing to your brass? What is your end-goal for the ammunition (LC isn't really the best brass for precision shooting)?

That being said, if you are full-length sizing you can expect ~10 reloads and the primer pockets are no longer relevant because they shouldn't have any problem lasting long enough to kill the brass via incipient case-head separation concerns.

 

[red_zr24x4]

If you are using the same brass in the same gun you can neck-size only. If you are doing neck-size only, you will not "kill" your brass in your lifetime unless you are shooting a crazy amount.

Shibumiseeker and I did a fairly involved brass life test using my Remington 700 rifle, factory once-fired R-P brass (fired from the same rifle). We did 4 different groups: Neck-size not-annealed, neck-size annealed, full-length size not-annealed, and full length size annealed.

BOTH of the neck-size only batches of brass (5 pieces of brass in each batch) lasted over an average of 120 firings IIRC. The longest a piece lasted was neck-size only not-annealed that lasted over 150 firings.

Now, to put that in perspective, even the most conservative reloader, that only loads the bare-minimum # of cartridges at a time has 100 pieces of brass for that cartridge. If you load to a conservative 100 reload limit per case you have 10,000 reloads which is enough to require a rebarrel on a .308, so at that time you can replace your brass too.

Does it matter who manufactures the brass? Yes and no. As long as your primer pocket holds shape the brass will outlast your barrel. We didn't have any primer pocket issues with the R-P brass. But many people report that FC (federal) brass is soft and the primer pockets often give out early. LC (Lake City) is now operated by Federal Cartridge Company on contract and they may or may-not be using their brass alloy formulation for the LC headstamped cartridges. If they are using their alloy formulation I would be very leary of brass-life due to primer pocket issues.

So is LC brass better than others? Maybe It depends on a LOT of factors, most of which you would have to give us. Are you neck-sizing? What other processes are you doing to your brass? What is your end-goal for the ammunition (LC isn't really the best brass for precision shooting)?

That being said, if you are full-length sizing you can expect ~10 reloads and the primer pockets are no longer relevant because they shouldn't have any problem lasting long enough to kill the brass via incipient case-head separation concerns.

While I agree with your post, it should be noted that cases shot in a semi-auto should be FL sized, and if the ammo is to be shot in different weapons it needs to be FL sized.

 

[warthog]

I believe that we are talking about rounds to be used in a bolt action as per the OP. So I see no reason to bring in things like semi-auto use, when it isn't part of the answer sought. However it is true that unless you keep your cases for each rifle separate, bolt action or not, you will need to FL resize since the chambers will differ between rifles. Then I would suggest not mixing your brass and neck sizing, since the less you work your brass, in general, the longer it will last for reloading. There are ways to tighten up primer pockets to squeeze out as many loading as possible as well.

I would guess that any NATO brass will develop a loose primer pocket faster than a commercial case. When you decrimp the primer, you must be very careful removing the crimp or you will be the cause of a bad pocket. Take as little of the ridge left as possible when cleaning the pocket and it is sure to last longer than if you get carried away reaming it out.

 

[ForceTA308]

Awesome info. We're reloading for a pair of 308's, a rem 700 and a savage 110. We're keeping the brass seperate on them so we can just neck size and keep the same brass with the same rifle. Some of those numbers are a lot higher than i would have ever imagined.

 

[ckcollins2003]

If you are using the same brass in the same gun you can neck-size only. If you are doing neck-size only, you will not "kill" your brass in your lifetime unless you are shooting a crazy amount.

Shibumiseeker and I did a fairly involved brass life test using my Remington 700 rifle, factory once-fired R-P brass (fired from the same rifle). We did 4 different groups: Neck-size not-annealed, neck-size annealed, full-length size not-annealed, and full length size annealed.

BOTH of the neck-size only batches of brass (5 pieces of brass in each batch) lasted over an average of 120 firings IIRC. The longest a piece lasted was neck-size only not-annealed that lasted over 150 firings.

Now, to put that in perspective, even the most conservative reloader, that only loads the bare-minimum # of cartridges at a time has 100 pieces of brass for that cartridge. If you load to a conservative 100 reload limit per case you have 10,000 reloads which is enough to require a rebarrel on a .308, so at that time you can replace your brass too.

Does it matter who manufactures the brass? Yes and no. As long as your primer pocket holds shape the brass will outlast your barrel. We didn't have any primer pocket issues with the R-P brass. But many people report that FC (federal) brass is soft and the primer pockets often give out early. LC (Lake City) is now operated by Federal Cartridge Company on contract and they may or may-not be using their brass alloy formulation for the LC headstamped cartridges. If they are using their alloy formulation I would be very leary of brass-life due to primer pocket issues.

So is LC brass better than others? Maybe It depends on a LOT of factors, most of which you would have to give us. Are you neck-sizing? What other processes are you doing to your brass? What is your end-goal for the ammunition (LC isn't really the best brass for precision shooting)?

That being said, if you are full-length sizing you can expect ~10 reloads and the primer pockets are no longer relevant because they shouldn't have any problem lasting long enough to kill the brass via incipient case-head separation concerns.

Did you ever measure the length of the neck sized only brass in between firings to see if it was within SAAMI spec? I've noticed that I get about 3-5 firings out of mine before it needs to be FL resized to be within spec.

 

[warthog]

I agree CK. I think what I was saying though was not to FL size more than you need to do so since the less work you put the brass through, the longer it lasts in general. I realize you didn't quote me but it seems like I said the same thing when I looked at what I said.

 

[sloughfoot]

How do you tighten a primer pocket?

 

[MAG58]

How do you tighten a primer pocket?

With a new case

 

[shibumiseeker]

Did you ever measure the length of the neck sized only brass in between firings to see if it was within SAAMI spec? I've noticed that I get about 3-5 firings out of mine before it needs to be FL resized to be within spec.

We regularly measured it and only had to trim a very few times. You can read the entire thread here:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ing/140337-new-brass-life-test-annealing.html

I included as much methodology as I could.

 

[shibumiseeker]

How do you tighten a primer pocket?

By carefully using a punch around the edge of the pocket.

I did it a few times way back when then decided no one piece of brass was worth the effort.

 

[sloughfoot]

Well I'll be darned. There really are a million stories out there.

 

[warthog]

they actually make tools to tighten primer pockets. They reform the pockets whole rather than trying to use a punch as described.

 

[ckcollins2003]

We regularly measured it and only had to trim a very few times. You can read the entire thread here:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ing/140337-new-brass-life-test-annealing.html

I included as much methodology as I could.

That's a great test. Thanks for sharing.

I agree CK. I think what I was saying though was not to FL size more than you need to do so since the less work you put the brass through, the longer it lasts in general. I realize you didn't quote me but it seems like I said the same thing when I looked at what I said.

Yeah I completely agree. The neck sizing die really does give your brass a lot more life. I've got pieces of brass ready to go on their 15th firing and they show no signs of wear. I've also had pieces of brass that have cracked after 5-6 firings.

they actually make tools to tighten primer pockets. They reform the pockets whole rather than trying to use a punch as described.

This would be awesome to have. I didn't know such things existed to be honest. Do they also work on handgun brass? I've thrown a lot of .40 brass away because of loose primer pockets. Also, do you have a link to one so I know what I'm looking for?

 

[tenring]

There is a thread out there some where [?] that describes changing the brand of primer to take care of the loose primer problem.

 

[sloughfoot]

Enlarged primer pockets indicate case head expansion. Case head expansion indicates imminent case head separation.

Please just discard used up brass and replace it with new brass.

 

[warthog]

They used to sell the pocket tighteners on Midway. They do work and I have used them on Starline handgun brass and gotten another ten loadings out of them before they either split or the pocket agains loosens. I don't use them twice as at that point the brass is certainly shot and it isn't worth it IMO.