Loading SD ammo?

[Kirk Freeman]

As a graduate of LFI, Mas' point is that you better have a response to whatever is thrown at you. Anything can be turned around on you (your tats, your haircut, your dress, your facial hair, inter alia).

Carry what the cops carry, you are a holster sniffing wannabe.

Carry what the ninjas carry, you are a trigger happy madman praying for war.

Carry handloads, you are a dangerous screwball wanting to maximize damage against womyn, THE CHILDREN, minorities and men in sandals.

Carry hollowpoints, you want to see peope suffer with your Doomsday Bullets of Doom.

Carry FMJs, you want to shoot through schools and police cars.

You get the point.

Self Defense? It depends. I'd rather have good facts than good gear.

I carry factory because they are likely more reliable and consistent.

 

[Kart29]

I don't reload pistol ammo, but if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to put it in my self-defense weapons. I'm not too worried about ever having to use it in the first place. Second, I doubt it would ever be an issue in a civil or criminal trial. If it did become an issue, I could simply say I loaded these particular bullets because they were on sale and I got a good deal on them. In my estimation, anyone wanting to make a case about me hand loading very deadly ammunition to be used for self-defense could equally make the case about me purchasing very deadly factory ammunition to be used for self-defense. You could even turn the argument around and say "ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm not some monster who loaded my gun with the new Instand Death Mega-Slayer ammunition produced by the big, evil death merchant ammunition factories. No, I'm just little ol' me who likes to shoot targets and I just had my gun loaded with the same old normal ammunition I use for recreational shooting targets at the range."

 

[Sailor]

SD = factory.
Everything else = reloads.

Ditto here.

Although my loads with Win231 are so smokey, I get the added benefit of concealment.

 

[GuyRelford]

The Arizona case that I mentioned a while back involved Harold Fish, a retired school teacher who was involved in a self-defense shooting while hiking. He shot a reportedly deranged man who was running toward him waving his arms around wildly. Mr. Fish was initially convicted of murder (although he was eventually freed after appeal). The prosecutor made a big deal out of the fact that he used a 10mm loaded with hollow-points. (As I recall, they were factory.)

After the conviction, at least one juror was reported as saying something like, "the hollow points really bothered me - they're designed to do as much damage as possible."

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think this was a horrible FAIL on everyone's part - most impotantly the defense attorney. Legally, Mr. Fish was either justified in using deadly force or he wasn't. There is no such thing as "really, really deadly force."

Like Kirk said above, anything can be spun, but it is the responsbility of the defense lawyer (and the judge) to make sure that such spin isn't completely inconsistent with the law. That's why Mr. Fish was eventually freed after appeal (very broke, I'm sure), but the conviction should never have happened in the first place.

 

[GuyRelford]

I'd rather have good facts than good gear.

Exactly!! If you're clearly justified in the use of deadly force, your gear is irrelevant (as long as it's legal).

 

[jedi]

Thanks kirk and TFT for chimming in.

 

[turnerdye1]

Thanks alot guys! Im just gonna keep carrying factory ammo. Im actually gonna look into some of the Hornady Critical Defense. Ive heard nothing but good from them. Or some Speer Gold Dots.

 

[g+16]

carry factory ammo, JUST because of the courts

 

[spencer rifle]

I've been using 115 grain Hornady XTP over Power Pistol for a while now, but only at lower than max loads. Flawless performance, but somewhat dirty and flashy (especially out of a PF-9). The flash factor is the main reason I would use factory for EDC. It's just somewhat of a pain to unload the factory and reload handloads for target. Sure, I could just use the factory up first, but those are WAY more expensive than handloads. After I've established that factory works consistently, I'd rather not burn a bunch every time I go to the range.

 

[SSGSAD]

SD = factory.
Everything else = reloads.

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^ for at LEAST 30 years .....

 

[ultraspec]

What he said. If you were involved in a shooting, someone might use your reloads as evidence of your overzealousness.

Completely accurate. It has happened numerous times and even if the prosecutor doesnt do it, the family will in civil court.


Mas Ayood has written on this numerous times.

You are best to use whatever SD ammo the police or FBI use and be satisifed that it will do what it takes to end the fight.

 

[malachi_s]

Trying to get a better understanding on this one. If I reload my own SD ammo, I could be held liable because I used a hot load or a "man killer'? I thought the logic was I feared for my life so I ended the threat. Doesn't the fact I chose a 45 ACP over a 9 basically share the same logic. I used a higher caliber because I deffinately wanted to end the threat. What if I used a 12 gauge with 00 buck instead of # 6 hunting shot. I am not trying to start a controversy but myabe someone with more knowledge can explain it to me. I used what ever was necessary to end the threat on my or my family's life. If it was a .22 or a bazooka, I ended the threat. Isn't that the point?

 

[Aaronhome27]

I understand both sides of the thinking here and possible out comes. That said, I do carry Factory SD Ammunition in my arms for SD. What I see though is that I would think it would be hard to make a hard case against someone if they used reloads. I understand it would be an accumulation of facts but still I see it hard to have reloads being even part of a deciding factor. Reason being that, in the case of say Hornady, they publish factory recommended loadings for nearly all calibers. You buy factory bullets, brass, powder, and primers as published and reload according to the factory recommendation. You don't use your own special blend of powder or homemade bullets just factory direct components and use as directed. I just see it hard to think they could use that against you anymore than using a factory ammo that is advertised to do mass damage against a threat. I am not trying to open a can of worms here just look at a little logic. I realize the logic might be wrong but it just makes sense.

 

[ultraspec]

Logic rarely applies to people in todays society (the persons' family whom you shot) that are going to be looking for a payout. Like I said mas Ayood has written about not using handloads for SD.

He has even written about not using a gun with a "menacing" sounding name. Being as he is one of the foremost experts on self defense shootings involving both police officers and citizens against offenders I would listen to the man.

 

[45lcrevolver]

i load my own sd rounds.

 

[hemicharger]

I will buy an INGO membership to the person who can show where self loaded SD ammo was a deciding factor in a criminal case. You have 24hrs from now to do it.

The deciding factor must be "self loaded SD" ammo. Nothing else.

 

[esrice]

The deciding factor must be "self loaded SD" ammo. Nothing else.

Does it have to be the "deciding factor" or can it be a "factor the prosecution presented" in the case?

Time to break out the Ayoob books and articles.

ETA: Here's an interesting read: http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php?topic=1883.0;wap2

From that article:

For several years, certain "Net Ninjas" have been spreading the false belief that no one has ever gotten in trouble in court from using handloads. Now you know better. The records of the N.J. v. Daniel N. Bias trials are archived at the Superior Court of New Jersey, Warren County, 313 Second Street, P.O. Box 900, Belvedere, NJ 97823. Those wishing to follow his appellate process can begin with the Atlantic Reporter at 142 NJ 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table). The only reason handloads have not been a factor in more cases is that most people who go in harm's way are already smart enough not to use them for defense.

 

[hemicharger]

Ayoob certainly has a point. But even if the man on trial used factory ammo I'm sure he would still have been found guilty. So what we have here is 1 case where handloaded ammo was questioned but not ultimately a deciding factor in a criminal case. I won't knock anyone for using factory ammo as I am carrying factory ammo right now because Speer can't seem to figure out how to manufacture a 230gr gold dot component. Its been months since I've seen them. Just don't live in fear if you decide to carry self loaded ammo.

 

[bwframe]

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[ultraspec]

Ayoob certainly has a point. But even if the man on trial used factory ammo I'm sure he would still have been found guilty. So what we have here is 1 case where handloaded ammo was questioned but not ultimately a deciding factor in a criminal case. I won't knock anyone for using factory ammo as I am carrying factory ammo right now because Speer can't seem to figure out how to manufacture a 230gr gold dot component. Its been months since I've seen them. Just don't live in fear if you decide to carry self loaded ammo.

Do you really want to have you loading your own SD ammo to be the deciding factor in any case? Criminal or civil.

You have to remember just because you dont get charged does not mean you are out of the woods yet