Looters and such

[churchmouse]

Civilized people barter and trade. Uncivilized people loot.

Yes, we all hope this will be the case. Again, time is the fuse. Everyone's fuse burns at a different rate. Hope we never have to test this theory.

I wont be a looter, I will be a scavenger.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yes, we all hope this will be the case. Again, time is the fuse. Everyone's fuse burns at a different rate. Hope we never have to test this theory.

I wont be a looter, I will be a scavenger.

Ok, hypothetical situation. SHTF has been going on for 12 months. You are fully self sufficient during that time. Throughout that period, you neighbors die for some unknown cause. In the neighbors rear storage, there is a nice cache of supplies; canned food, ammunition, and various other useful supplies. Your neighbors also have 2 adult age children out of state. Will you help yourself those supplies? How long will you wait before you do? What if the kids return, do you compensate them?

Ownership doesn't have different definitions. Even in death people aren't allowed to take things that don't belong to them. So what is the difference between a looter and a scavenger?

 

[ghunter]

How about robbing looters?

 

[churchmouse]

Ok, hypothetical situation. SHTF has been going on for 12 months. You are fully self sufficient during that time. Throughout that period, you neighbors die for some unknown cause. In the neighbors rear storage, there is a nice cache of supplies; canned food, ammunition, and various other useful supplies. Your neighbors also have 2 adult age children out of state. Will you help yourself those supplies? How long will you wait before you do? What if the kids return, do you compensate them?

Ownership doesn't have different definitions. Even in death people aren't allowed to take things that don't belong to them. So what is the difference between a looter and a scavenger?

This is a very good question. I would want to make sure those supply's were gathered and put to use. In your scenario, would a long term SHTF allow the kids to get back. How much time do you let go by before you feed your dependents. This is a question of individual Morals. I am sure there would have been communication between yourself and the party in question. Possibly instructions given.
On another side of this, ownership during such an event would be for the living and those who could defend and maintain ownership. That is just a thought. A lot would depend on more than we can list here.
Finally, If the kids did show up, yes, they would have to be included at whatever level possible.

To survive in bad times would require many to alter or just totally change how they view the world. As stated, I truly hope to never put this to the test. I know that I am capable of surviving, no matter what. Would that be relinquishing my humanity and sacrificing my sanity as asked up thread.

 

[churchmouse]

Ok, hypothetical situation. SHTF has been going on for 12 months. You are fully self sufficient during that time. Throughout that period, you neighbors die for some unknown cause. In the neighbors rear storage, there is a nice cache of supplies; canned food, ammunition, and various other useful supplies. Your neighbors also have 2 adult age children out of state. Will you help yourself those supplies? How long will you wait before you do? What if the kids return, do you compensate them?

Ownership doesn't have different definitions. Even in death people aren't allowed to take things that don't belong to them. So what is the difference between a looter and a scavenger?

I would also like to reference story's of the westward trek of the wagon trains. They would come upon scenes of failed attempts of others with all or some of the stores intact. Folks died from many different things along the trail west. The took all they could carry to insure their own survival. Really no different if you think about it from the view point of those trying to survive.

 

[CarmelHP]

Morals will keep you hungry and get you killed in a prolonged situation.

Lack of morals will get you killed quicker. Looters will be shot early and often.

 

[CarmelHP]

I would also like to reference story's of the westward trek of the wagon trains. They would come upon scenes of failed attempts of others with all or some of the stores intact. Folks died from many different things along the trail west. The took all they could carry to insure their own survival. Really no different if you think about it from the view point of those trying to survive.

Stealing from the dead is low risk. The dead own nothing. Stealing from the living will get you numbered with the dead.

 

[F250]

Who is stronger?

churchmouse you stated "On another side of this, ownership during such an event would be for the living and those who could defend and maintain ownership". Would the looters coming after your supplies be thinking the same thing? I know it was said that the owners were dead.But they do have children.
The difference between morals and ethics is that my moral behavior can be influenced by others. I can also influence what is considered ethical treatment by what is my moral standard. Morals being a personal standard and ethics being a society standard.

 

[blamecharles]

There is a difference between procuring supplies and looting:

A lot of stories came out of Katrina that were pretty slanted and i agree with some of them and disagree with a lot of them.

If you are grabbing tv's, stereos, jerseys etc in the middle of a damn flood, you are looting.

If you are grabbing diapers, water, food in the middle of a damn flood you are procuring supplies.

Looting:

Procuring Supplies:

 

[blamecharles]

As far as my thoughts on looters:

 

[netsecurity]

If your neighbor dies, I see it as your responsibility to bury them nicely, and procure and protect their rations, so that evil looters don't just steal everything. Perhaps even leave a note for the children to contact you about their parents, and when they do you tell them you have their belongings, and tried not to touch them. But if you did have to consume some of their rations, I'm sure they'd understand, and consider it the fee for protecting what's left. It really seems like the only honorable thing to do. Leaving rations unprotected or to waste is just foolish.

 

[blamecharles]

If your neighbor dies, I see it as your responsibility to bury them nicely, and procure and protect their rations, so that evil looters don't just steal everything. Perhaps even leave a note for the children to contact you about their parents, and when they do you tell them you have their belongings, and tried not to touch them. But if you did have to consume some of their rations, I'm sure they'd understand, and consider it the fee for protecting what's left. It really seems like the only honorable thing to do. Leaving rations unprotected or to waste is just foolish.

I can see a note being a bad thing though. Imagine some BG finding the note and bringing some sob story to you, wanting to thank you etc. I agree with trying to do the right thing, you would have to use caution though.

 

[churchmouse]

churchmouse you stated "On another side of this, ownership during such an event would be for the living and those who could defend and maintain ownership". Would the looters coming after your supplies be thinking the same thing? I know it was said that the owners were dead.But they do have children.
The difference between morals and ethics is that my moral behavior can be influenced by others. I can also influence what is considered ethical treatment by what is my moral standard. Morals being a personal standard and ethics being a society standard.

I think I understand what you are saying but please put it in the scenario we are discussing.

I see you are new and have not experienced the full effect of lets beat up the new guy so just hang on and enjoy the ride. Welcome to ingo.

 

[churchmouse]

Stealing from the dead is low risk. The dead own nothing. Stealing from the living will get you numbered with the dead.

That would be the mindset if things did go south and stay there.

 

[churchmouse]

I can see a note being a bad thing though. Imagine some BG finding the note and bringing some sob story to you, wanting to thank you etc. I agree with trying to do the right thing, you would have to use caution though.

It is good to see so much faith in the humanity of others. It is a bit miss-placed here but still good to see.

 

[F250]

Thanks for the welcome.

New to the site,old in the ways of the world.
Just so you know, we all need to follow the rules and I do try to do so. That is how we maintane order in this country.
Just dont ask me what I am willing to do for my family and the people care about.

 

[bwframe]

Are you a looter or a producer?

"Who is John Galt?"

 

[EvilBlackGun]

I'm a little bit disturbed ...

... to see some canines mentioned in the same vein as a human, in the same sentence. Dogs are just like friendly coyotes, to be eaten as needed. A child is not at all like that. Just my own $Ø.Ø2. Further, YOUR morals will get you killed by me, long before you even know I am there with my own morals. EBG

Morals will keep you hungry and get you killed <snip> ... my dogs are part of my immediate family and I would not be able to eat them, and it breaks what little heart I have to think about something happening to them or my girl

 

[Hotdoger]

 

[churchmouse]

Again, every scenario or situation is different. We will all respond to each in our own way through our own moral mindset and be driven by survival. To each their own views and opinions. Yes, if a person comes to take from me (even today) they will be met with the appropriate force required to change their mind. If this is their end then they are hard headed and single minded.
I keep reviewing the question put to this thread about the neighbors things and ownership after death. I also think of what I stated about the pioneers heading west and their struggles to survive. Most all I assume were steady, good folks looking for a new life. I am sure anything found along the way was "Finders, Keepers" in the name of survival. Maybe not exactly the same but is someone met their maker on the trail west, all their goods were divided up amongst the living.
We all, each and every one will do what ever is needed to survive. If I look into my grandaughters eyes and see hunger or pain, well, I am going to deal with it no matter what. I would be hard pressed to resist any child in a situation such as what we discussing. I would end up running the churchmouse mobile orphanage. Would we loot to feed the kids....I think most of us would.