M&Ps used by LA deputies put officers, public at risk, report says

[crispy]

Report: New gun used by LA deputies put public at risk - CNN.com

Because...

1. It actually has a decent trigger pull.

2. It has no external safety. Nevermind the fact that they could have gotten the model that did.

and the last one is too ridiculous to believe...

3. A light mounted to the gun and activated by deputies squeezing a pressure switch on the grip has led to confusion in some incidents with a "significant number of deputies reporting that they unintentionally pulled the trigger when they intended to only turn on the light."

Hey, but don't let that stop you from blaming the gun instead of the idiots using them.

 

[BogWalker]

Sounds like training issues to me.

 

[Twangbanger]

Hmm. Obviously Smith and Wesson needs to strike another "deal" with incoming Queen Hillary to modify some features and fix these obvious shortcomings.

 

[9mmfan]

Sounds like training issues to me.

This. /thread

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Considering the Inspector General said in the report that it was a combo of training scars and a lack of following the fundamentals of firearms safety, I'd say the Sheriff, their Lead Training Officer, and their S&W rep should be raked over the coals...

 

[Vigilant]

Sounds like training issues to me.

Zactly!

 

[EvilKidsMeal]

LA deputies put officers, public at risk, report says

​Fixed the title for you.

 

[ccomstock001]

First off why is this even news worthy other than to make it seem like the police are going to shoot you. Also they are making way to big of a deal out of these percentages. Back in '12, 3 people had a nd. The next 19 and in '14 the percentage dropped to only 61% higher that makes around 4-5. According to lasd's website there are 18,000 employees. Now I know not all of them will be armed but that would still be less than a .001% chance of it happening. So I really doubt anyone is really at risk.

 

[IndyDave1776]

First off why is this even news worthy other than to make it seem like the police are going to shoot you. Also they are making way to big of a deal out of these percentages. Back in '12, 3 people had a nd. The next 19 and in '14 the percentage dropped to only 61% higher that makes around 4-5. According to lasd's website there are 18,000 employees. Now I know not all of them will be armed but that would still be less than a .001% chance of it happening. So I really doubt anyone is really at risk.

Good point, much like the ~300 million firearms in the United States who didn't shoot anyone today with or without their owners' permission.

 

[ajeandy]

Sounds like they need some new cops.

 

[chipbennett]

Sounds like they need some new cops.

No, just better training - particularly, remediation of the training that explicitly taught officers to violate Cardinal Rule #3.

 

[ajeandy]

[video=youtube;lCUKHTWK8_k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCUKHTWK8_k[/video]

If I can operate a handgun better than a LEO then I want a new LEO.

 

[Alamo]

Sounds like training issues to me.

Yes. The report identifies training issues. CNN's headline warps that into "OMG GUNS!".

 

[in625shooter]

Considering the Inspector General said in the report that it was a combo of training scars and a lack of following the fundamentals of firearms safety, I'd say the Sheriff, their Lead Training Officer, and their S&W rep should be raked over the coals...

Here is what I posted on another forum about this that sums it up.

As a LE firearms trainer I will say the larger the department the more issues you have because of numbers and diversity. And every department that went from revolvers or DA/SA type firearms to Glocks, M&P's etc type have had an increase of AD's/ND's. But the numbers in the story are statistically low for a department as large as LASD.


Now let me first say, I am not justifying what happens, I am just explaining what I have observed over a 29 year career.

The issue with a Glock, M&P or striker fired type is they are less forgiving of bad habbits IE finger not indexed while holstering. Where a DA revolver or DA/SA SIG, Beretta etc has a heavier DA trigger plus the resistance of a hammer having to g rearward the AD/ND factor with those types while thay have happened are easily stopped UNLESS the person keeps forcing it.

As far as the AD/ND's when having the gun out Yes the whole light with buttons can cause anyone to have a mess up the fact that a Glock with a 5.5 lb or one of the millinials thinking they have to have a 3.5 again is less forgiven of bad habbits. I mean how many of us have had a mess up with car/hous keys in one hand, phone or something else in another hand and use the wrong hand??? More than will admit and that is when nothing stressful is happening.

While it is easy for many folks to say "well they deserved it, or they should be trained" here is the issue you face as a trainer for an agency. You have some sqaured away staff that are well oiled machines, but for the most part many more are not. And out of those there are a few that touch their guns very infrequently. Factor that in that some agencies only qualify once a year for line staff and the bad habbits never get corrected. You can't be their consious and be everywhere they are. That is the most frustraiting thong about beng an instructor. "Those folks" that look at you like your speaking like Charlie Browns Teacher and go out and 2 weeks later get bit but you are not the one that does the hiring or firing so what do you do, the administrations doesn't want to hear it.

 

[10mmfan]

sounds like a software problem not a hardware problem. Some retraining should be in order.

 

[OakRiver]

A bad workman blames his tools

 

[in625shooter]

A bad workman blames his tools

True, and I will add that I have seen some of those workman that I am convienced if you left them alone for 5 minutes with an anvil and a spounge, when you came back the anvil would be broke!

 

[whiteoak]

If you went in to a meeting and stated Officer (X) had a negligent discharge last shift. Every Officer in the room would be shaking their head, not in disbelief, but in disgust because they knew Officer (X) was and idiot already. You can't make the world safe from idiots, they will always be there and will continue to throw their wrenches into the mechanism as long as you keep them in position. FIRE THE FOOLS THAT YOU KNOW ARE GOING TO BE A LIABILITY!!!!. This is a Politically Correct issue, not a training issue. Some people just can't be trained, and should not be there in the first place!
How many of you know that person in your workplace that just has been given too many chances, and should have been let go, but just keep coming back. Police work is no different now. JMHO as a former CEO of an LEO.

 

[in625shooter]

If you went in to a meeting and stated Officer (X) had a negligent discharge last shift. Every Officer in the room would be shaking their head, not in disbelief, but in disgust because they knew Officer (X) was and idiot already. You can't make the world safe from idiots, they will always be there and will continue to throw their wrenches into the mechanism as long as you keep them in position. FIRE THE FOOLS THAT YOU KNOW ARE GOING TO BE A LIABILITY!!!!. This is a Politically Correct issue, not a training issue. Some people just can't be trained, and should not be there in the first place!
How many of you know that person in your workplace that just has been given too many chances, and should have been let go, but just keep coming back. Police work is no different now. JMHO as a former CEO of an LEO.

Unfourtunatley the PC and inability to get rid of "That Guy/Gal whether in about any place anymore LE agency or not" has gotten to the point of recklesness. Problem is those of us in the middle are stuck trying to wade through the muck!

But as far as the topic of LASD the article is greatly exaggerated when you look at the amount of Officers they have. Your not hading out that many tools to that many staff and not have something happen. Look at the Military and they are thought to be trained as well.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Considering the Inspector General said in the report that it was a combo of training scars and a lack of following the fundamentals of firearms safety, I'd say the Sheriff, their Lead Training Officer, and their S&W rep should be raked over the coals...

Here is what I posted on another forum about this that sums it up.

As a LE firearms trainer I will say the larger the department the more issues you have because of numbers and diversity. And every department that went from revolvers or DA/SA type firearms to Glocks, M&P's etc type have had an increase of AD's/ND's. But the numbers in the story are statistically low for a department as large as LASD.


Now let me first say, I am not justifying what happens, I am just explaining what I have observed over a 29 year career.

The issue with a Glock, M&P or striker fired type is they are less forgiving of bad habbits IE finger not indexed while holstering. Where a DA revolver or DA/SA SIG, Beretta etc has a heavier DA trigger plus the resistance of a hammer having to g rearward the AD/ND factor with those types while thay have happened are easily stopped UNLESS the person keeps forcing it.

As far as the AD/ND's when having the gun out Yes the whole light with buttons can cause anyone to have a mess up the fact that a Glock with a 5.5 lb or one of the millinials thinking they have to have a 3.5 again is less forgiven of bad habbits. I mean how many of us have had a mess up with car/hous keys in one hand, phone or something else in another hand and use the wrong hand??? More than will admit and that is when nothing stressful is happening.

While it is easy for many folks to say "well they deserved it, or they should be trained" here is the issue you face as a trainer for an agency. You have some sqaured away staff that are well oiled machines, but for the most part many more are not. And out of those there are a few that touch their guns very infrequently. Factor that in that some agencies only qualify once a year for line staff and the bad habbits never get corrected. You can't be their consious and be everywhere they are. That is the most frustraiting thong about beng an instructor. "Those folks" that look at you like your speaking like Charlie Browns Teacher and go out and 2 weeks later get bit but you are not the one that does the hiring or firing so what do you do, the administrations doesn't want to hear it.

Unfourtunatley the PC and inability to get rid of "That Guy/Gal whether in about any place anymore LE agency or not" has gotten to the point of recklesness. Problem is those of us in the middle are stuck trying to wade through the muck!

But as far as the topic of LASD the article is greatly exaggerated when you look at the amount of Officers they have. Your not hading out that many tools to that many staff and not have something happen. Look at the Military and they are thought to be trained as well.

You're facing the same troubles that almost every major company is wrestling with... Upper mgmt wants results. Trainers are told to do what they have to do, but do it cheaper and faster. Lower mgmt / workers are being told to hurry up and get product out the door to make more money & not sweat the details. I've even seen where companies have done the research to figure out how much a lawsuit would cost vs a product recall. Doing what's right for the sake of doing what's right has become foreign while Wall Street and Perception have become the Leaders of the Land.

I realize that Departmental Firearms Instructors are human and trying to support a family, but there needs to be a point when a person says, "No more..." Each person needs to define that line for themselves.