Making Electrical Power, Small Scale.

[JeepHammer]

Fwiw...see nec 110.14.
Splices must be MECHANICALLY secured WITHOUT the use of solder. Solder may then be applied.

Correct.
Mechanical securing is to keep the wire in contact with the terminal in the event it's overheated and the solder is melted again.

Mechanical connection (commonly crimp), then solder, and complete the connection with electrical insulation AND environmental protection.

AC wiring guys leave 99% of terminals unprotected, and this is a bad idea when dealing with corrosive batteries (AC guys don't deal with batteries),
AC guys deal with boxes for protection from contacting exposed terminals, so they don't electrically insulate those connection points.
Exposed battery terminals are dangerous enough, wrench slips & shorting out against something bad is a real issue since batteries have to be rotated in the battery strings from time to time.

You can't 'Turn Off' a battery like you do an AC circuit, a battery is ALWAYS a 'Live' terminal connection, the reason I stress enhanced safety around batteries...

Keep in mind, while people quote NEC (National Electrical Code) there wasn't a solar/RE section in the NEC bible until 2013.
This means a BUNCH of AC/Grid guys are WAY out of date in their education, and have little to no experience with batteries/RE systems.
This isn't bashing the guys that do grid/AC work, it's simply pointing out that many haven't cracked the books since 2013, and very few work with RE/off grid systems.

There is a reason I get a LOT of work with RE and off grid systems, they simply get stumped, of the inspector won't pass something they installed, and/or the system fails.
Failure is quite common when the electrician isn't specifically educated in RE/off grid systems.

 

[edwea]

.

 

[Cameramonkey]

And one thing many don't consider. Inverters. Namely their lack of efficiency.

Inverters are supidly inefficient. At least on the APC brand DC->AC inverters that are in UPS' they have an unexpected (at least to a lay person) behavior; Until you are pulling >80% of the inverter's capacity, you are wasting more electrons to heat than what is being spit out the outlet on the AC side. So avoid taking that DC and trying to run AC devices off of it. You are going to waste a lot of valuable energy doing so.

So if at all possible, keep your devices all DC powered and avoid using inverters with your batteries.

 

[JettaKnight]

APPLICATION!!!, APPLICATION!!!, APPLICATION!!!

Take a breath...

You said it would be more efficient to move the rectifier away from the alternator and toward the battery.

That's absolutely not true.

AC wiring guys leave 99% of terminals unprotected, and this is a bad idea when dealing with corrosive batteries (AC guys don't deal with batteries),
AC guys deal with boxes for protection from contacting exposed terminals, so they don't electrically insulate those connection points.
Exposed battery terminals are dangerous enough, wrench slips & shorting out against something bad is a real issue since batteries have to be rotated in the battery strings from time to time.

You can't 'Turn Off' a battery like you do an AC circuit, a battery is ALWAYS a 'Live' terminal connection, the reason I stress enhanced safety around batteries...

I'm the rare electrical engineer who's got experience with res. & commercial wiring. I've done work on heavy duty vehicle electronics, and few environments are as rough as that (and there's a lot of battery power). Probably only military applications are more rugged.

No one is soldering connections there.


If you want to say, "For the most robust connection, consider using an uninsulated connector that you can then solder and cover with shrink wrap." - that's cool. But to make a blanket statement that crimping is guaranteed failure is going to draw some heat.


I think the problem is more in how you're conveying the information - you're making statements that appear to be facts and rules, but you are really trying to be much more applicable to ... what would you say - off the grid power? You're reducing theory and general practices down to a useful level, but the tone and words don't convey very well that you're simplifying things. It's less to do with what you're saying, but how you're saying it. I get the real impression that you're pretty smart about electricity, so I'm [not] trying to shut you up, but only trying to point out where your words give the reader the wrong information.

Does that make sense?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Been a lineman for 30 years, guess I've been doing it all wrong

Don't tell him that aluminum transmission line is welded in sub stations with one or two of those crappy welding processes, we don't want his head to explode..

 

[JeepHammer]

Well, here goes the thread into right angle tangents, bombed with irrelevant memes and videos...

EXACTLY WHERE IS THERE A MILLION VOLT POWER LINE 5,000 MILES LONG IN A SMALL POWER SYSTEM?

I run power 50 yards, not 500 miles.
I run 220-240 volt MAXIMUM.

Most off grid systems are limited to 110 VAC and aren't 50 FEET end to end...

Keep in mind the AVERAGE power grid loss is 80% wasted.
The average RE system is less than 30%, some are under 20%.
This is why you can pay off an off grid system in 10-15 years at current rates, while rate increases will pay off the system much sooner.

My example was based on a 20 year payback, with rate increases (paying for the 80% losses) my system paid back in 9 years.
Keep in mind I used the best conductor for the application (copper) reducing the losses, saving money and making the energy I produce day in the system.

What you can't explain to the AC Grid guys is simple...

They can't use copper. It's too expensive & heavy. Period.

They use steel, aluminum, conductors with huge resistance losses, I simply don't waste my time & money on resistance losses.
It's not a requirement they electrically insulate the stuff they do, not mandatory, so they don't do it.
I work around a full time 'Live' system (batteries), so I insulate for safely AND longevity to reduce replacement costs.

I environmentally seal up my connections because copper corrodes in contact with air/moisture & the corrosives in air/moisture.
This is cost savings simply because CLEAN COPPER conducts better, reducing resistance losses, reducing maintenance/replacement costs.
It also nearly eliminates failures: POWER OUTAGES!
When the big grid has zero failures in 14 years, I *Might* consider the short cuts they use in their systems.

SO!
If you haven't run for cover, if you made it this far... Keep in mind it's apples & oranges here since they can't wrap their heads around the idea of batteries and SMALL POWER SYSTEMS.

Notice NONE have added to, or helped out with useable information for small power. They are stuck in the dogma of big grid, high voltage AC systems...

 

[JettaKnight]

Notice NONE have added to, or helped out with usable information for small power. They are stuck in the dogma of big grid, high voltage AC systems...

These days I'm working with a 3.3V MCU that's controlling 277 VAC IGBT's. I have no such bias like you describe.

Like I said, you make sweeping generalizations in your text, you're bound to get called out for it.

 

[deo62]

Newsflash- there is actual copper lines on the grid! Granted, not as much anymore, but it is there.

 

[JeepHammer]

Take a breath...

You said it would be more efficient to move the rectifier away from the alternator and toward the battery.

That's absolutely not true.

Can you prove that?
I can prove my statement conclusively given someone wants to take production readings at the generator, and again at the rectifier.
This is with the most common Delta wound alternator stator windings, the most common alternator used for small scale wind generators in the US.
I went and took the classes, I tested on my own wind generator, and I've directly tested several other wind generators since the largest supplier of that conversion kit recommends me for trouble shooting in my area (since I took the classes to actually understand the system instead of quoting dogma).

I'm the rare electrical engineer who's got experience with res. & commercial wiring. I've done work on heavy duty vehicle electronics, and few environments are as rough as that (and there's a lot of battery power). Probably only military applications are more rugged.

What a coincidence!
I worked on, and still work on designs/specifications for MILITARY vehicles!
In specific, hardening/bullet proofing some electrical systems.
I'm CONSTANTLY having to PROVE, and then beat into 'Electrical Engineers' heads they were simply taught the MOST simple way to do things,
While hardening takes attention to detail, overbuilding, bulletproofing so simple connections don't create a mission failure...

I helped engineer the most popular racing ignition system used today (CDI from Autotronic Controls, the MSD ignition).
In case you aren't aware, that was 100% about capacitance, inductance, resistance, etc.

That's why I started out with SIMPLE & BULLET PROOF to start with in a SHTF or emergency situation.

APPLICATION, APPLICATION, APPLICATION...

No one is soldering connections there.

That's an outright lie.
Even switches on simple vehicle suspension systems MUST he soldered, and not by anyone, but by a CERTIFIED solder person.
I know this because I designed the systems for the special forces people mover, fast attack vehicle, built the level ride suspension system with magnetic ride height suspension system with memory presets.
I had to get the assemblers certified for soldering connections for those systems, and military projects/contracts.
So tell me again about how the military NEVER solders connections...

If you want to say, "For the most robust connection, consider using an uninsulated connector that you can then solder and cover with shrink wrap." - that's cool. But to make a blanket statement that crimping is guaranteed failure is going to draw some heat.

Again, mechanical connection (crimp commonly), solder to both provide a low resistance electrical connection and seal up the connection from environmental contamination that cause corrosion.

A mechanical crimp is NOT 100% contact, and therefore is NOT as efficiency as it could EASILY be with electrical solder. Period.

Leaving air space in a crimp connection is a 100% guaranteed path for corrosion. Look at EVERY AC Grid connection for corrosion.
Look at EVERY battery terminal connection in a vehicle, the battery terminals are dull & dark with corrosion, not bright/shiny like lead is supposed to look when not corroded.
Take a look at any vehicle battery cable where terminal meets wire, often hidden damage, where the copper is full, green/blue instead of bright & shiny...
This is 100% proof positive that terminals corrode when not protected... Either by solder (silver bearing solder is the best COMMON protection) which gives a better ELECTRICAL connection and environmental protection.

Entirely missing the small scale power part, the entire point of the thread, EFFICIENCY reduces costs through losses.
AC grids waste 80% of production, but (when they work, another point of this post on a SHTF forum) when they work they supply UNLIMITED amounts of power, as much as you can waste in something as simple as connections.
Why waste the LIMITED production from small generation?...

Mechanical connection keeps the conductor (wire) in the connector/terminal end in the event of an overheat that liquifies the solder.
This is a PROPER electrical connection for high Amperage DC, in particular battery cables and wires/cables that are zero failure, even in the event they are shorted out & over heat...

It's common sense, not 'Electrical Theory'.

Now, again, common sense, not 'Theory',
An added TOUGH coat of environmental protection, like silver 'Tinning' of exposed copper, and a tough insulation that seals up that connection like industrial glue sealing heat shrink tubing further bullet proofs that connection.

You are thinking low amperage AC again, not high Amperage DC wiring...

And might I point out that big industrial welders, the ONLY device that handles both DC & Amperages as high as a battery can produce, use actual silver solder that takes a acetylene torch or induction heating to melt that silver... Not silver BEARING electrical solder...

I think the problem is more in how you're conveying the information - you're making statements that appear to be facts and rules, but you are really trying to be much more applicable to ... what would you say - off the grid power?

Exactly, but the 'Problem' is YOU didn't read the small scale power title in the thread, and you couldn't/wouldn't comprehend the intent of the thread.

Anything & everything that isn't directly run off the power grid is small scale RE/small power.
Anything connected to, and running off the grid is NOT small scale power.

You're reducing theory and general practices down to a useful level, but the tone and words don't convey very well that you're simplifying things.

I stated from the very outset this was BASIC, MOST SIMPLE TERMS simply because nearly everyone thinks electrical work is 'FM'...
I started at the MOST SIMPLE TERMS FOR THE BEGINNER, AND STATED SO!

I didn't even start with Ohm's law, I stated in plain terms about Watts, Volts, Amps, and the simple math required...

At what point did you mistake, "Two Wires, Positive & Negative" for a 4th year electrical engineering dissertation?
At what point did you mistake, "Most Basic, Most Simplified" for a 4th year electrical engineering dissertation?

I don't believe the 'Miscommunication' was with the most basic guidelines I could break things into,
I suspect you grazed the thread and decided to show people how much you know...

It's less to do with what you're saying, but how you're saying it. I get the real impression that you're pretty smart about electricity, so I'm trying to shut you up, but only trying to point out where your words give the reader the wrong information.

Does that make sense?

Makes NO sense.
1. Why *IF* you think I'm "Pretty Smart About Electricity",
Why in the world would you want to "Shut Me Up"?

2. Why even though stated this was SMALL SCALE power, you insist on applying big grid rules?

3. Why you attack battery terminal connection common sense?
This is EXACTLY how the military, Off Road & Top End RE cable makers produce bullet proof cables, how high DC Amperage welders do those connections, without the added expense for custom cables.

4. Why do you talk about 'Theory' instead of practical, useful information FOR BEGINNERS? (As stated in the very beginning)
Nothing useful to add is subtracting from the conversation...
Why would you subtract, sideline & derail/confuse anyone that was trying to learn something?

5. Normally I won't call out anyone directly, but since you called me out DIRECTLY, and tried to tell me where I made 'Mistakes' or didn't know what I was talking about, (but then said I did know what I was talking about), I address you directly....

 

[churchmouse]

Interesting.

 

[JeepHammer]

And one thing many don't consider. Inverters. Namely their lack of efficiency.

Inverters are supidly inefficient. At least on the APC brand DC->AC inverters that are in UPS' they have an unexpected (at least to a lay person) behavior; Until you are pulling >80% of the inverter's capacity, you are wasting more electrons to heat than what is being spit out the outlet on the AC side. So avoid taking that DC and trying to run AC devices off of it. You are going to waste a lot of valuable energy doing so.

So if at all possible, keep your devices all DC powered and avoid using inverters with your batteries.

I need to switch gears here...

The smaller, and mostly older/cheaper inverters are pretty inefficient.
It's mostly poor quality semi-conductors that produce a lot of heat through resistance.

This is VERY general and wide statement,
Under 1,500 Watts they are usually cheaply (China) built and inefficient.

The newer and higher output inverters (European, American & Australian) built inverters for the whole house are MUCH better quality and an order of magnitude better components.
The better stuff is trickling down into smaller inverters, but finding one under about 2,000 Watts is usually a special order from Europe or Australia.
The tariffs haven't helped us out any...

Do you know about 'Cascade' inverters?
A rack with several inverters, as demand increases, the next inverter 'Wakes' and kicks in.
This saves a LOAD of 'Stand By' losses (pun intended), and the inverter working handles all loads thereby running more efficiently until load exceeds the limits of the first inverter.
Some of these rack systems also provide redundancy if an inverter fails, which is REALLY nice if you are living off grid.
One of the big complaints I have with the grid, it fails REGULARLY (mostly due to poor practices & materials) and it ALWAYS fails when things get really bad and you need it most... (Murphy's Law)
I haven't had a failure in 14 years, the last failure taught me about minimal lightening protection... Lightening doesn't read NEC books...

With emergency power, SHTF power, it wouldn't matter, but I use modular design inverters instead of everything built on one mother board.
I buy up all the crippled/dead inverters like mine for spare parts (and later upgrades).
Virtually no one works on their own inverters, I'm the unicorn, I do most of my own repairs so I keep spare parts.

I would suggest a back up inverter like your primary so they are interchangable without new wiring or changing wire locations on the mounting surface.
Again, this is common sense, and with the smaller inverters they are fairly inexpensive so a back up isn't out of the price range of most.

 

[JeepHammer]

OK...

Since the thread is entirely sidetracked/ego torpedoed anyway...

All you certified experts start from scratch and work out a way to produce a small scale power system from scratch, and put it in terms that will be understood by the general masses, people that their electrical education is limited to changing light bulbs, car batteries or running an extension cord, maybe wiring up something simple in a vehicle...

And in 3... 2... 1...

 

[JettaKnight]

Makes NO sense.
1. Why *IF* you think I'm "Pretty Smart About Electricity",
Why in the world would you want to "Shut Me Up"?

Oops! That was a typo, should have been "I'm not trying to shut you up"

OK...

Since the thread is entirely sidetracked/ego torpedoed anyway...

All you certified experts start from scratch and work out a way to produce a small scale power system from scratch, and put it in terms that will be understood by the general masses, people that their electrical education is limited to changing light bulbs, car batteries or running an extension cord, maybe wiring up something simple in a vehicle...

And in 3... 2... 1...

That's probably an exercise that's better undertaken in book form. Even YouTube or Instructables seems like a better media format than INGO.


Since this has turned into a pissing contest, I'm instead going to go do some engineering work... and get paid for it.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

It's interesting when folks get upset with discussion on a forum that's supposed to have discussion.

 

[JeepHammer]

Oops! That was a typo, should have been "I'm not trying to shut you up"





That's probably an exercise that's better undertaken in book form. Even YouTube or Instructables seems like a better media format than INGO.


Since this has turned into a pissing contest, I'm instead going to go do some engineering work... and get paid for it.

No Joy since there is no point.

I have this in instruction form on my web site, like the Brown & Sharp Scale that was later adopted as the American Wire Gauge standard for the US.

No point in trying to stay on topic with a specific OBJECTIVE when people are going to sidetrack everything with SUBJECTIVE trivia bits and ego pieces that are totally off topic.
I can't follow a schizophrenic conversation, I'm not going to waste time with zero sum or negative side lines.

In ONE single project for the military, the connector shape, coatings on terminals, wire material & length was changed 71 times requiring a retooling and revision each time due to 'Engineers' that couldn't follow the application.
In the end, we went back to EXACTLY the original design simply because it performed the best when we actually called it a money suck and quit, a Marine Col. running the project contacted us to find out why we stopped...

And that was just ONE connector, not the 40 other things they didn't understand and kept wanting to change...

He understood 'Bullet Proof', he understood interchangable, he understood redundancy, we are still building the systems.

 

[JeepHammer]

It's interesting when folks get upset with discussion on a forum that's supposed to have discussion.

I asked YOU to discuss EXACTLY how you would build, and explain a small power system to a novice...
Did you miss that?

 

[churchmouse]

It's interesting when folks get upset with discussion on a forum that's supposed to have discussion.

Some folks just argue for the sake of it...

Power on a small scale. I have not devoted a lot to this but we have had a few fairly decent battery inverted back ups.
Friends own a serious recovery/salvage operation near us. There was a time when folks were scrapping out the family Winnebago as apposed to putting new tires and brakes on it. The yard had about 6 of these come in close together to be salvaged. 4 had less than 40K on the clocks but had been sitting. The inverters were there as were the control panels. We stripped these out. Battery inverted power supply's were not new to me as we had a few race trailers wit them in place. These inverters were serious enough pieces.

I built the 1st one with 8 batterys (a mix of lead acid offerings from the yard) that all checked good. (2) 4 battery bass boat smart chargers and a good structure to house all the parts and pieces we had a fairly "OK" battery back up mainly for lighting. Never tried to run a refrigerator on this one. No fancy in house secondary wiring for this just ample well made extension cords. A good friend talked me out of it and put it in his hunting cabin. This was 12 years or so ago. He swapped out the battery's for deep cycle marine pieces and it has served him well.

I built another one just like it for a good friend and he still has it. Yes they have to run the genny's to bank up the power but not as often as you might think.

The last one was a 10 battery (deep cycle gel) with the last 2 inverters. Had it in place for a few years and never needed it. We did run the lights and refrigerators on it occasionally. It was sold to another friend. He has integrated it into his off the grid solar system.

No magic engineering just solid build techniques. Every wire was crimped and then soldered. I am not certified. I have lost track of the wiring I have done in racing applications with never a failure. Proper tools/materials.

No idea how efficient those systems were. All I know is they worked. and still do. Now we have way more generator/fuel reserves we need to run both property's for a given time period.

 

[JeepHammer]

Mouse, that's pretty standard, where most people start...
Battery or battery bank, inverter, off to 110 powered applicances.
Pretty standard other than you got the bonus system snagging the panels from an RV and it was a fairly matched system that way.

My most reliable, trustworthy generator came from an RV.
Onan is still making all the replacement parts for it last time I checked, and the conversion from gasoline to propane/multi fuel was a snap with the propane conversion kit Onan uses.
I WISH I would have thought to strip out all then other goodies at the same time, all I got was a converter from 110 VAC to 12 VDC, the generator charged the batteries and supplied all 12 VDC outlets when it ran through the converter.

Batteries & inverter is where I started in ernest.
Before that I used solar panels to keep a trailer/winch battery alive, and stuff like AA batteries charged.
I *Believed* Lush Dimbulb when he said solar power wasn't viable...
I didn't realize at that time he was a paid pundts for big energy, I was ignorant so I got duped.

The next mistake was buying from places like Horror Freight.
Low cost also means low production & poor materials/workmanship, short life.

Made that mistake TWICE with 'China' inverters...

Then came the gawd-awful corrosion issues with alloy 'Battery' cables instead of making my own from welding cable.
Nothing corrodes/heats/fails quite like copper alloy when a lead-acid battery gets hold of it!
Do what you want, but for me it's 100% VIRGIN copper 100% of the time...
5 to 10 times the resistance per foot in that alloy wire, I leaned the hard way.

Mostly solar to charge, mostly trouble free if the panels are a name brand (Europe) and you make solid connections that are sealed up tight.
I just don't get enough wind correctly to do much, it's either too much for my converted generators, or it's too little.
I'm just in one of those places.
*IF* I were up on the flat planes it would be different, I would invest more in wind, something with a speed limiter so storms didn't tear tear things up.

This DOESN'T have to be difficult, generation to batteries, batteries are storage and system regulation, then to inverters.
The bigger the system gets the more complicated it gets... As with anything else.

You CAN'T throw 100% of production at the batteries when your generation EXCEEDS the ability of the batteries to absorb the power.
My panel array produces 100% of household use IN WINTER, short days, low sun.
If I tried to wire batteries directly to panels, the batteries would cook.
A $20 charge controller stops that, excess power is available directly to the inverter while the batteries charge at the required rate.

That's a $20 item to save $1,000+ battery string. Pretty cheap investment...

My way of working out things is 'X' amount of panels dedicated to 'Y' amount of batteries to produce the longest lived batteries.
Batteries being the most expensive consumable in the system.
I'd rather shunt, or even waste a little power rather than cook the batteries.

On the other side of that, every panel grid has a higher capacity than the batteries they are connected to.
Again, keeping the batteries fully charged keeps them alive MUCH longer. It's a cost analysis thing here...

The fastest way *I KNOW* (disclaimer, my direct knowledge base), is to use anything but distilled water in them.
No 'Drinking' water with salts or solids, no 'tap' water with chlorine or other chemicals, iron rust or mineral solids.

The second fastest way I know is chronic undercharge.
Nothing like solidifying the sulfuric acid electrolyte into solid sulfur on the plates to kill a battery.
A $20 de-sulfidator is a good idea, a deep charge cycle that will 'blast' the sulfur buildup off the plates back into electrolyte solution.

This is skipping things like misuse entirely (not watering, banging it around), adding a base to the acid, or something like directly shorting the terminals...
If you set out to kill the battery, that's an intentional act, so I didn't cover it.

The fastest way to kill an inverter is to starve it, too small of battery cables, bad terminals/connections, etc.
The second fastest way is to directly short out the AC wires, like pinching an extension cord or running nails/screws through AC output wiring.
Since the cheaper inverters have AMPERAGE breakers, but the inverter will get killed in milliseconds by over-current conditions, it doesn't make sense to have a slow amperage trip breaker in the line.

I killed an inverter by directly shorting out the AC output, this is how I learned the difference.
I now have over current protection instead of over amperage protection, and my inverters survive...

The fastest way to kill a solar panel, or wind generator is by NEC minimum lightening protection.
Again, I learned this the hard way.
If your panels aren't the most attractive lightening point, like not up by themselves on a bare hillside, you *Might* get away with NEC minimums, but since out in the wide open space is where the panels are most productive is the optimum spot, I'd consider doubling, or triple lightening protection, up to and including a lightening rod with dedicated Earth Ground well above the panels...
Again, about 20 years of direct experience.

Old TV towers, even a single metal pipe with pointed copper/copper clad conductor on top is MUCH cheaper than a new panel array.
This assumes you also use a deep ground rod and proper size wire between top electrode & Earth Ground rod...
I'd rather channel the lightening and have at worst an indirect strike than a direct strike.

Anyway, I'm waiting to hear what the experts come up with, their experience with small power, solar, wind, water generation, storage & distribution.
It should be interesting since they are experts...

 

[JeepHammer]

Let's see how many pictures I have on this little pad...



A VERY OLD diagram I drew back in '99 for the first round of sustainable living extra credit classes from IU.
These young folks didn't know squat about electricity, so I started with basics and moved up from there so they at least for a concept of what system parts were and what they did.
Good kids for the most part, 'Social Media' hadn't rearranged their brain chemistry back then...

It's the 'Whats & Whys' of Series & Parallel battery strings, and why you DON'T want high Amperage & Low Voltage.
It also shows some of the "Don't Do" things when wiring batteries together.

I can't get the full color pictures to post for some reason.
It's usually good to see the diagram (not schematic) next to an actual picture so students can connect the dots...

 

[churchmouse]

Understanding wiring and properly sizing of same I always make sure to use what is needed. Not the minimum either. On my battery racks I used welders drop cable to string the battery's together. And yes, stripping out the system in total was a huge advantage. The inverter taps were in the middle of the battery string. I have seen golf carts and fork lift systems done that way. Seemed to make sense.

We live Urban. The grid has been reliable for the most part. Even with that we have 4 gennys fueled ran and at the ready.