Man killed by Police was Army Vet and West Point grad

[pftraining_in]

I agree with this assessment. Witnesses said the cops commanded him to drop the gun, so what is he supposed to do, but reach for it.

I would think that placing his hands on his head and lowering to his knees or going prone would be good choices. No matter what commands he was being given, he had guns pointed at him and made a move to a gun.

If you were in another country and confronted by police with guns drawn and giving commands in there native tongue, would you reach for your gun to lay it down or place your hands on your head in the universal surrender position.

If you were in your home and confronted by a guy with a pistol in a holster, would you risk your life by waiting to see if the guy reaching for gun was disarming or drawing the pistol to shoot you?

Don't forget, you have had since July to make your choice based on witnesses and evidence if the officers should have shot, the officer had under a second based on the situation at hand.

 

[DRob]

Disgusted

This kind of stuff disgusts me. No, not the actions of the police but rather responses by all the "experts" here who are not police, never have been police, never will be police, yet based on news media reports and speculation know more about how to handle such a situation than the guys who were there charged with the duty to handle it.

Thank God for the people who have to make life and death decisions that 99% of us will never have to make!

 

[rambone]

Maybe it's just me, but I would, in no way, ever reach for my gun if ordered at gun point to do anything. I would obey all pertinent instructions otherwise, such as "get down on the ground" and so forth. How do I know?

Right, that would be the wise thing to do, but it conflicts with what he was told. He might not have thought critically that "maybe the cops don't really mean it."

BTW I found that DNR story to be disturbing. America is a police state. Officially.

I would think that placing his hands on his head and lowering to his knees or going prone would be good choices. No matter what commands he was being given, he had guns pointed at him and made a move to a gun.

Well, again, if witnesses are saying that he was given orders to drop his weapon, it might have been confusing for an average citizen. Not being a cop, knowing how cops think.

This kind of stuff disgusts me. No, not the actions of the police but rather responses by all the "experts" here who are not police, never have been police, never will be police, yet based on news media reports and speculation know more about how to handle such a situation than the guys who were there charged with the duty to handle it.

Thank God for the people who have to make life and death decisions that 99% of us will never have to make!

You know what disgusts me, are dead people.

Does it really hurt your feelings that the public disapproves when the cops kill somebody?

Does the "Court of Public Opinion" really matter to those officers? Or to you?

Am I a juror? Am I not allowed to express my disapproval and outrage? Are cops and former cops the only ones allowed to comment? Should the jury be made up of 12 police officers whom also been involved with fatal shootings?

 

[pftraining_in]

Well, again, if witnesses are saying that he was given orders to drop his weapon, it might have been confusing for an average citizen. Not being a cop, knowing how cops think.

According to his resume' he was would have not been your average citizen.

Due to TV, throwing your hands in the air is a typical response for most people when confronted by the police and given commands. Typically you have to order people to do something other than place their hands in the air or on their heads when giving commands.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Exactly how would you place your holstered sidearm on the ground as ordered at gun point, without reaching for it?

I would think that slowly placing his hands on his head and slowly lowering to his knees or going prone would be good choices. No matter what commands he was being given, he had guns pointed at him and made a move to a gun.
FTFY
Yes this probably would of been a better option. But it is what he was told to do.

If you were in another country and confronted by police with guns drawn and giving commands in there native tongue, would you reach for your gun to lay it down or place your hands on your head in the universal surrender position.

If I didn't understand the language I would probably "reach for the sky", but that wasn't the case here.

If you were in your home and confronted by a guy with a pistol in a holster, would you risk your life by waiting to see if the guy reaching for gun was disarming or drawing the pistol to shoot you?

If the pistol was in a holster I wouldn't tell the guy to drop it, I would tell him to put his hands behind his head and lay face down. While attempting to stay behind him. That is if I didn't feel threatened, he is in my home after all.

Don't forget, you have had since July to make your choice based on witnesses and evidence if the officers should have shot, the officer had under a second based on the situation at hand.

I've had since the jury was convened and I read the reports. I didn't decide until after that. I gave the benefit of the doubt to the LEOs. And yes the officers involved had allot less time than that. But most likely I would also if I'm ever involved in a self defense shoot and if I ever am I expect to go through what they did.

 

[dross]

According to his resume' he was would have not been your average citizen.

Due to TV, throwing your hands in the air is a typical response for most people when confronted by the police and given commands. Typically you have to order people to do something other than place their hands in the air or on their heads when giving commands.

Assuming the officers told him to put his gun on the ground, what did they mean by that command?

 

[PatriotPride]

According to his resume' he was would have not been your average citizen.

Due to TV, throwing your hands in the air is a typical response for most people when confronted by the police and given commands. Typically you have to order people to do something other than place their hands in the air or on their heads when giving commands.

No disrespect, but in EVERY interaction I have had with police they have ordered me to either "put your hands in the air" or "let me see your hands" while having a firearm pointed at me. You can be damn certain that my hands are going in the air, regardless of a command issued. The last thing I need is a bullet to the chest because I put my hands at waist/chest level and the officer thinks I'm reaching for a firearm.

Not a chance in hell that I would touch my firearm with a cop pointing a gun at me. That's just begging for an inexperienced or adrenaline-charged officer to dump a mag into you. If a cop were to tell me to "drop your gun" and it was in my holster, well...they can come and get it. I'm not touching it.

 

[rambone]

No disrespect, but in EVERY interaction I have had with police they have ordered me to either "put your hands in the air" or "let me see your hands" while having a firearm pointed at me. You can be damn certain that my hands are going in the air, regardless of a command issued. The last thing I need is a bullet to the chest because I put my hands at waist/chest level and the officer thinks I'm reaching for a firearm.

Its mind-blowing how widespread this type of interaction has become. This is why good people fear the police.

 

[public servant]

No disrespect, but in EVERY interaction I have had with police they have ordered me to either "put your hands in the air" or "let me see your hands" while having a firearm pointed at me. You can be damn certain that my hands are going in the air, regardless of a command issued. The last thing I need is a bullet to the chest because I put my hands at waist/chest level and the officer thinks I'm reaching for a firearm.

Not a chance in hell that I would touch my firearm with a cop pointing a gun at me. That's just begging for an inexperienced or adrenaline-charged officer to dump a mag into you. If a cop were to tell me to "drop your gun" and it was in my holster, well...they can come and get it. I'm not touching it.

But let's say you did remove it from your waistband...holstered or not. Wouldn't common sense tell you not to bring it in front of you or point the muzzle in the direction of the cop pointing a gun at you?

 

[j706]

But let's say you did remove it from your waistband...holstered or not. Wouldn't common sense tell you not to bring it in front of you or point the muzzle in the direction of the cop pointing a gun at you?

Yes but common sense seems to be lacking with some of these posters. It seems to be that common sense isn't to common in certain circles.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Yes but common sense seems to be lacking with some of these posters. It seems to be that common sense isn't to common in certain circles.

Ive often thought the same about you on issues. and thats scary considering the GRANTED power you have as an LEO. you would probly be one of the ones i would have to take to court based on your elitest LEO post. your the type i never wanna meet.

 

[PatriotPride]

But let's say you did remove it from your waistband...holstered or not. Wouldn't common sense tell you not to bring it in front of you or point the muzzle in the direction of the cop pointing a gun at you?

Look, I'm honestly not trying to be a smart-aleck here. If I was emphatically ordered to remove the firearm, holstered or not, would you suggest I then hold it behind my back then set it on the ground? My instinct would be to set it on the ground in front of me, as the officers tend to want to see my hands at all times? There's just too much that can go wrong, IMO, when an officer tells someone to remove their firearm.

 

[public servant]

Look, I'm honestly not trying to be a smart-aleck here. If I was emphatically ordered to remove the firearm, holstered or not, would you suggest I then hold it behind my back then set it on the ground? My instinct would be to set it on the ground in front of me, as the officers tend to want to see my hands at all times? There's just too much that can go wrong, IMO, when an officer tells someone to remove their firearm.

*If* a cop ever had a gun pointed at me and told me to "drop" the gun...that's exactly what I would do..."drop" the gun. Not a good practice I know. But with the running down my leg...the finish on the firearm would be the furthest thing from my mind.

But *if* I'm the cop in the situation...and that muzzle moves to being pointed at me...well...I shudder to think of the consequences.

I understand all the points of view on the matter. But you have but a split second to make a decision. Are you going to wait to find out what his intentions are?

Rule number one of firearms...never point a gun at anything you're not going to shoot. If it's pointed at me...I have to assume you're going to shoot me.

Had this guy not been all hopped up on drugs...none of this would probably have even been an issue. He possibly at the worst would have went to jail. Instead he carries a gun while he's so high that he apparently can't comprehend simple directions and he dies as a result of his actions and decisions. And it is a damn shame.

Now I'll give you that there was probably a lot of confusion in commands coming from 3 different people. But common sense need to play into it somewhere. You point a gun at someone and bad things will likely happen.

Anyway...that's just my take on it. I wasn't there...thank God.

And I owe you an apology. I negative repped you yesterday for a comment you made in a thread I didn't think belonged there. I apologize for that. My bad. I still don't think it belonged...but you're entitled to your opinion. Please accept my apology for being touchy on that subject. My bad.

 

[PatriotPride]

*If* a cop ever had a gun pointed at me and told me to "drop" the gun...that's exactly what I would do..."drop" the gun. Not a good practice I know. But with the running down my leg...the finish on the firearm would be the furthest thing from my mind.

But *if* I'm the cop in the situation...and that muzzle moves to being pointed at me...well...I shudder to think of the consequences.

I understand all the points of view on the matter. But you have but a split second to make a decision. Are you going to wait to find out what his intentions are?

Rule number one of firearms...never point a gun at anything you're not going to shoot. If it's pointed at me...I have to assume you're going to shoot me.

Had this guy not been all hopped up on drugs...none of this would probably have even been an issue. He possibly at the worst would have went to jail. Instead he carries a gun while he's so high that he apparently can't comprehend simple directions and he dies as a result of his actions and decisions. And it is a damn shame.

Now I'll give you that there was probably a lot of confusion in commands coming from 3 different people. But common sense need to play into it somewhere. You point a gun at someone and bad things will likely happen.

Anyway...that's just my take on it. I wasn't there...thank God.

And I owe you an apology. I negative repped you yesterday for a comment you made in a thread I didn't think belonged there. I apologize for that. My bad. I still don't think it belonged...but you're entitled to your opinion. Please accept my apology for being touchy on that subject. My bad.

I understand. Thanks for your perspective on it. Bottom line seems to be don't carry when you're as high as a kite.

Thank you---I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, but looking back it wasn't the time nor place to voice my concern. That was my bad. No worries and apology accepted.