Marion County: SWAT Team in action - Video

[Fenway]

opcorn2:


SWAT Team Drive By | SplodeTV.com

 

[jontheturboguy]

Back when MCSD actually meant something....

 

[alex_velociti]

Whats wrong with our swat teaM?

 

[trusite]

ummm, werent they shooting directly across from each other?? wtf

 

[jontheturboguy]

Whats wrong with our swat teaM?

Have you been under a rock?

 

[MilitaryArms]

ummm, werent they shooting directly across from each other?? wtf

Yes they were, amazing stupidity.

 

[Coach]

I don't think they lined up that way on purpose. They had to get out of the way or get run over. One gun shot wound to the arm for all of those shots fired. That is sad. They two or three guys on this side of the street should have been on the ground once the truck passed.

Marksmanship. Most LEO's cannot spell it and ideal range conditions, and when they have to shoot in these type of high pucker incidents. Look out.

There was bank robbed a couple of years ago in Putnam County and the LEO responding had his AR rested on a wood fence post as the criminal drove down a lane and past him, the magazine was emptied. Criminal lived and was lifelined on the county budget. An "A" for effort I guess.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Marksmanship. Most LEO's cannot spell it and ideal range conditions, and when they have to shoot in these type of high pucker incidents. Look out.

You're not kidding.

Police: Bullet Meant For Alleged Captor Hit Hostage - News Story - WMAQ | Chicago

That's from a shooting last year here in Valpo. The officer had the barrel of his AR15 pointed at the front of his car while the sights were looking over it (just barely). He fired once and didn't see the armed man go down at a ridiculously close range because the bullet glanced off the front of his vehicle. Not thinking, he fired again and once again the bullet glanced off the front of the car, missing the gunman and this time killing the hostage.

They took AR15's away from patrol officers after the incident.

What's even more alarming is that police are being armed with government surplus M16's and running around with them in residential areas.

 

[Paul]

You're not kidding.

Police: Bullet Meant For Alleged Captor Hit Hostage - News Story - WMAQ | Chicago

That's from a shooting last year here in Valpo. The officer had the barrel of his AR15 pointed at the front of his car while the sights were looking over it (just barely). He fired once and didn't see the armed man go down at a ridiculously close range because the bullet glanced off the front of his vehicle. Not thinking, he fired again and once again the bullet glanced off the front of the car, missing the gunman and this time killing the hostage.

They took AR15's away from patrol officers after the incident.

What's even more alarming is that police are being armed with government surplus M16's and running around with them in residential areas.

And police are the only ones who should have guns

 

[Dr. Dave]

Why was the Host given a shotgun? Did he really need a prop for this?

 

[Coach]

We had another little incident here in Putnam County a few years ago where a teenage boy went off the deep end. His mother was held hostage in the house right along a state road. The cops parked in the drive way exchanged gun fire with the boy who was at the front door or the front window. The house is less than 20 yards from the edge of the road. The cops were hunkered down behind their car doors. More than one dent was put in the car hood by the deputies as they returned fire.

These are the people I am supposed to call for help. I think I will wait till things calm down and just have them take a report.

 

[phylodog]

Glad to see that there aren't any members here perpetuating the "us versus them" mentality.

Why is it that if an anti gunner wants to hold all gun owners responsible for the shootings at Columbine, CO and ban guns, they're wrong. Yet if a police officer somewhere screws up with a patrol rifle, we should all be up in arms about police everywhere else having patrol rifles?

We should be scared that police officers are being issued DRMO M16 rifles? Sure saves the taxpayers a lot of money and most of them are converted to semi auto before being issued. At that point they're no different than anyone elses AR15 that they can walk into a gun store and buy.

Seems like there are several folks around here who are quick to judge. Makes me wonder how many have been in a situation similar and had to fire a weapon accurately. Things are a bit different when someone is shooting back or trying to run you over with a vehicle.

I wasn't there and I won't make excuses for that incident. There were several mistakes made. There was a great deal of after action discussion as well as changes to training and doctrine made as a result. I will say that I have gone through many doors with most of the men on that tape and I'd go through them again. Some of the finest men I've met were there that day. I've put my life in their hands and theirs in mine on several occasions. Not one of them ever let me down.

I would disagree with the statement that "most" LE can't even spell marksmanship. I just so happen to be present during the qualification of over 1600 police officers every year. Out of that number we might have 4 a year who fail to pass the qualification course. The course is not incredibly difficult but requires a demonstration of proficiency sufficient to properly operate a handgun.

Pretty easy to armchair quarterback what others are doing. If you really want to prove something, go out and do a better job yourself.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I wouldn't expect you to say "yeah, there are some training problems" or anything constructive like that. We all suck, we know nothing, you're always right, etc. You are furthering the sterotype far more than I am with your "screw you" attitude.

As for government surplus M16's being converted to semi-auto (which I'm fine with), how do you explain this department issued rifle?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKRh8yackUc"]YouTube - Colt M16 A1[/ame]

That's my buddy shooting his department issued M16. He's quite capable with it by the way.

 

[phylodog]

There is no "screw you" in my statement. I never said or implied that anyone sucked or was stupid, please don't put words in my mouth.

If you'll reread my stamement you'll see that I acknowledged that mistakes were made and changes were made as a result. Perhaps if someone had told us we needed to train for a Suburban charging the SWAT team prior to this incident it would have worked out differently but no one did. You can't plan for every possible event before it happens. We're all human and humans make mistakes, especially when the adrenaline is pumping. What's being thrown around here are generalizations that no one would appreciate if the shoe was on the other foot.

If your buddy is quite capable with his M16, why are you alarmed that it was issued to him?

 

[esrice]

I don't look at the first video and think "boy, they suck. Look at all those mistakes!"

I look at it and think "wow, if the trained police had a tough time getting a good shot, then I need to beef up on my own personal training to ensure that I can make accurate hits".

Those guys lived that situation. We didn't. Their toughest critic is probably themselves. There is just as much "us vs. them" as there is "us vs. lawyers" or "us vs. doctors". Some doctor accidentally cuts off the wrong leg and everyone freaks out and says they could do a better job. But we don't understand how being a doctor works and we don't understand what precipitated the incident.

We all have a job to do. Sometimes we do them well. Sometimes we fall short.

I'm just glad that there are people like phylodog willing to walk through those doors so my neighborhood is a better place to live.

 

[indyninja]

Really broad brush there Coach. Since you are so much better than the cops don't call them like you say. Just have them do the report and then they can learn from you since you will be able to handle any situation perfectly.

These are the people I am supposed to call for help. I think I will wait till things calm down and just have them take a report.

 

[MilitaryArms]

If your buddy is quite capable with his M16, why are you alarmed that it was issued to him?

I didn't say I was. He's one of hundreds of thousands. It just so happens he takes the time to practice with his weapon on his own at his own personal expense.

He's a gun nut, many officers aren't.

The point is, we don't need to militarize our police departments. Do you think we need to continue to militarize our departments?

 

[phylodog]

The "militarization" of our police departments was begun in response the the threats officers were facing on the job. No one in their right mind would do this work, for this pay, knowing they were forced to be undergunned and undertrained constantly. It took the death of a MCSD deputy to get a patrol rifle program for the department. Later on it took the death of an IPD officer for IPD to get a patrol rifle program. Some may see that as the militariztion of the departments, the officers simply see it as leveling the odds. Why should police officers armed with handguns be forced to take on violent felons armed with rifles? It doesn't make sense. Many believe, especially members of firearm related forums, that they don't need police officers assistance to handle their problems and they very well may be right. But for every one who doesn't, there are 25 who do and when they call they expect us to respond and do everything we can to resolve the issue.

I can't speak for every agency in the country but I can tell you that our SWAT team exists to do the work that your every day officer isn't prepared to do. It is much more cost effective to train a small group to go after the baddest of the bad than to expect everyone on the department to do it. It takes a great deal of training to reduce the chances of officers getting killed when faced with violent people. Although many may believe that officers are expendable I don't know any who believe that themselves. Not everything is forgivable in the name of "officer safety" but it shouldn't be the last concern either. If it were up to me it would be swaT rather than SWAT because the tactics are what enables us to be succesful, not the weapons. The weapons simply allow us a level playing field or perhaps a slight advantage over the average criminal.

You are right about many officers not being gun nuts. There is no reason to believe that there are any more gun nuts in L.E. than there are in our society per capita. Carrying one at work doesn't make any of our people an expert but we do have standards they must meet.

As far as continuing the "militarization" of our police departments goes, I think there should be some sort of control put in place. There are far too few small agencies who get ahold of a Blackhawk catalog and a few DRMO M16 rifles and decide they're gonna have a SWAT team. It's a dangerous situation for everyone involved in my opinion and it should be regulated somehow. I don't know how to go about it but something should be in place.

I do believe that SWAT teams are necessary in today's society. With the propensity for violence as it is, there needs to be some way of dealing with it other than expecting underequipped and undertrained police officers in to be gunned down. Like I said earlier, you may be able to handle any situation that you find yourself in and that's great, I wholeheartedly support your RTKBA but there are a lot of people who choose not to exercise that right. When they call for help they expect a response. When we respond we expect to be provided the equipment and training to deal with whatever we find at the end of the road.

 

[MilitaryArms]

The "militarization" of our police departments was begun in response the the threats officers were facing on the job. No one in their right mind would do this work, for this pay, knowing they were forced to be undergunned and undertrained constantly. It took the death of a MCSD deputy to get a patrol rifle program for the department. Later on it took the death of an IPD officer for IPD to get a patrol rifle program. Some may see that as the militariztion of the departments, the officers simply see it as leveling the odds. Why should police officers armed with handguns be forced to take on violent felons armed with rifles? It doesn't make sense.

Don't get me wrong, police should have access to modern rifles like the AR15. A weapon doesn't make an organization militant on it's own.

M16's have absolutely no useful purpose on a police force (select fire). There aren't very many safe situations I can think of where unaimed automatic fire would be useful or safe in a urban setting. MP5's in well trained hands, I'm not opposed to either.

Many believe, especially members of firearm related forums, that they don't need police officers assistance to handle their problems and they very well may be right. But for every one who doesn't, there are 25 who do and when they call they expect us to respond and do everything we can to resolve the issue.

I don't ever want to live in a city without police. Police are quite necessary in a modern society. What I don't appreciate is when the police look down upon the civilian population and treat us as though we're subjects to be controlled. Assist me but don't treat me like a subject. I say this because of interactions with Chicago area police, whom I now despise. Here in Indiana things aren't nearly as bad.

I can't speak for every agency in the country but I can tell you that our SWAT team exists to do the work that your every day officer isn't prepared to do. It is much more cost effective to train a small group to go after the baddest of the bad than to expect everyone on the department to do it. It takes a great deal of training to reduce the chances of officers getting killed when faced with violent people.

I completely agree. SWAT serves a very useful purpose. But many departments abuse the use of these teams. They go from being "high risk" to being used for just about every warrant or police action you can think of. In essence, you're taking a military force and policing with it when you do that.

As far as continuing the "militarization" of our police departments goes, I think there should be some sort of control put in place. There are far too few small agencies who get ahold of a Blackhawk catalog and a few DRMO M16 rifles and decide they're gonna have a SWAT team. It's a dangerous situation for everyone involved in my opinion and it should be regulated somehow. I don't know how to go about it but something should be in place.

We're not so far apart in our line of thinking. I agree with this 100%.

I do believe that SWAT teams are necessary in today's society. With the propensity for violence as it is, there needs to be some way of dealing with it other than expecting underequipped and undertrained police officers in to be gunned down.

I agree with this completely as well.

Like I said earlier, you may be able to handle any situation that you find yourself in and that's great, I wholeheartedly support your RTKBA but there are a lot of people who choose not to exercise that right. When they call for help they expect a response. When we respond we expect to be provided the equipment and training to deal with whatever we find at the end of the road.

I'm not so macho that I think I can handle any situation that comes at me. I do feel like I am the first line of defense for myself and my family. I carry every where I go that I legally can. I train regularly and also have formal military training (MCSF). But I completely support local authorities and only ask that they show me the same respect.

It would seem that we're not that far apart in our views.

 

[phylodog]

It would seem that we're not that far apart in our views.

Believe it or not, demonstrating that was my intention when I posted in this thread.