Massad Ayoob: The necessity of high capacity magazines. How many rounds are needed?

[bwframe]

 

[Trapper Jim]

Good info as applied to professional use public safety personnel. Civilian EDC major advantage is for the industry to sell more high cap goodies while they promote the fear of need.

 

[VERT]

1911 is a 2 bad guy gun, problem starts when you live or visit a 3 bad guy town.

 

[COOPADUP]

Good video and he did a great job mentioning the 10 round State of New York.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Good video! Carrying something similar to the Police (not as many spares, not a full size handgun, but similar) seems logical. Backing up your J-frame with a derringer may not be the best course of action.

 

[Route 45]

1911 is a 2 bad guy gun, problem starts when you live or visit a 3 bad guy town.

1911 is not even a 1 bad guy gun sometimes.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty

www.police1.com

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I like Mas personally and professionally, and have really enjoyed working with him. That said, I think you have to separate out your personal threat profile from some amalgamation of every shooting everywhere. More ammo is better unless you're swimming or on fire, but don't fetishize capacity. Try not to suck. Make each bullet count. Learn soft skills that set you up for success.

In random violence scenarios, I've yet to find someone dead with an empty gun in their hand. Targeted, absolutely, and sometimes a draw where they shoot each other to shreds before both succumbing. If you can and will carry a duty size gun, go for it, but there's way more winners with a j-frame deployed from a pocket than there are Mega-Double-Stack-O-The-Day in a sock drawer or center console.

 

[Trapper Jim]

1911 is not even a 1 bad guy gun sometimes.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty

www.police1.com

It is the carpenter, not the hammer. By all means if your skill set dictates then carry a pallet full.

 

[Tyler-The-Piker]

 

[wcd]

1911 is not even a 1 bad guy gun sometimes.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty

www.police1.com

I have no issues or concerns over relying on a 1911 in all applications. Not to say that I do not carry two extra magazines, for added capacity and malfunction insurance.

Im my opinion John a Public would be far better served by doing a threat assessment and training to counter the most likely threats versus worrying about having the end all be all mega blaster.

 

[Donovan48]

Back about 45 years ago the police in a CA city were transitioning from revolvers to S&W model 59s. The armorer told me it just made his job harder because when there was a shooting he was the guy who had to account for all the bullets that didn't connect. He said that with revolvers it typically meant the cops would connect with the first two shots and miss the next four. With the Smith autos they would connect with the first two shots and miss the next thirteen. Capacity tends to the "spray and pray" mindset. Higher capacity mandates more training, not less.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Back about 45 years ago the police in a CA city were transitioning from revolvers to S&W model 59s. The armorer told me it just made his job harder because when there was a shooting he was the guy who had to account for all the bullets that didn't connect. He said that with revolvers it typically meant the cops would connect with the first two shots and miss the next four. With the Smith autos they would connect with the first two shots and miss the next thirteen. Capacity tends to the "spray and pray" mindset. Higher capacity mandates more training, not less.

Realistic simulations and stress inoculation definitely lessens the chance any given person runs the gun like a sewing machine. Some folks are just born mag dampers, though.

 

[Route 45]

Im my opinion John a Public would be far better served by doing a threat assessment and training to counter the most likely threats versus worrying about having the end all be all mega blaster.

Threat assessment and training is not the opposite of equipment selection. To me, the combination of best practices with modern equipment is the way to maximize the chances of prevailing in a lethal force encounter.

No one in the middle of a deadly situation ever wished for less ammo. Which is why there is a Hellcat Pro in my pocket right now as I’m out and about, instead of some 5 shot good luck charm that would have been right at home in a vest pocket in the 1800’s.

 

[armalitesheepdog]

I feel more comfortable carrying something I shoot very well (9mm 1911 10+1) than changing up to something I do not for the sake of 5 more rounds. I'm sure there could be a situation where more would be better but for my risk level 11 feels about right. If I'm going somewhere or late at night I may drop a spare mag in a front pocket, also not optimal but I'm feeling ok with a total of 21

 

[rosejm]

It's eye opening when you train to engage 2 or 3 targets with a single stack or revolver. There's a lot of reloading involved.

However, something to keep in mind as well: each additional attacker increases the difficulty of the gunfight significantly.
Even with a fun-size stendo, you're unlikely to prevail against 3+ determined armed assailants.

 

[wcd]

Threat assessment and training is not the opposite of equipment selection. To me, the combination of best practices with modern equipment is the way to maximize the chances of prevailing in a lethal force encounter.

No one in the middle of a deadly situation ever wished for less ammo. Which is why there is a Hellcat Pro in my pocket right now as I’m out and about, instead of some 5 shot good luck charm that would have been right at home in a vest pocket in the 1800’s.

It should be one package, to date I have not Read how anyone ever stated that they wished they did not have that 1911 when things went south.

Also I am not aware of anyone ever regretting choosing the best tool for them and regretting training with it to the point where it is instinctive.

And that is why the 1911 works for me

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It's eye opening when you train to engage 2 or 3 targets with a single stack or revolver. There's a lot of reloading involved.

However, something to keep in mind as well: each additional attacker increases the difficulty of the gunfight significantly.
Even with a fun-size stendo, you're unlikely to prevail against 3+ determined armed assailants.

Try it with three role players with Simunitions. There probably won't be any reloading.

Now, Simunitions isn't entirely "Fair" in that it includes a vastly reduced OODA loop, mental load, etc for the "bad guys". It's tougher to finesse your way to the gun because they are ready and expect you to resist, etc. You can counteract that somewhat by repeated runs with some being compliant and some resisting, even in role playing people get complacent.

 

[rosejm]

Try it with three role players with Simunitions. There probably won't be any reloading.

Sorry, I can see how my point might be lost...
The lots of reloading happens after the engagement. A minimum of opportunities leaves nothing to continue the fight. A bit more capacity is worthwhile.

But I still maintain that planning to have enough for a 2nd wave, or more than 3 perps is pretty optimistic. Unless you recognize an excellent tactical advantage, how many of those "extra" rounds are expected to matter? Either they're hit, you're hit, or everyone's running for cover/escape.

Even with .25s splits, the 3rd shooter has enough time to join in before including your transition time. Is it possible to prevail? Sure, anything's possible. Are your odds of success high? Not except in the most unique cases.

When we consider 5+ (gangs/mobs) as in the video, or the proliferation of body armor, we should also consider rifles & teammates.

 

[Ark]

Police departments constantly post those spread pictures showing all the guns they pulled off arrestees that week or month or whatever. It's a good cross section of criminal equipment, and what do you see?

Some pocket holdout guns, a LOT of Glocks, and AR/AK pistols. Criminal weapon choice is a blend of availability and mission. Availability is, just talking facts here, a fun house mirror reflection of the regular civilian market because thats where the guns come from.

So yeah, their mission demands capacity, and in the modern market that capability is available. The notorious stendo is the criminal version of putting the M249 on the truck for ambush response. Now with AR/AK pistols they have extremely high capacity along with some degree of rifle caliber effectiveness, and can be concealed in vehicles or bags.

That doesn't mean you need to roll with a whole Batman belt, but it is indisputable that a degree of firepower that would have made national news in the 70s is pretty common now. Prepare accordingly and don't assume the threat will be a crackhead with a duct taped Charter Arms.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Police departments constantly post those spread pictures showing all the guns they pulled off arrestees that week or month or whatever. It's a good cross section of criminal equipment, and what do you see?

Some pocket holdout guns, a LOT of Glocks, and AR/AK pistols. Criminal weapon choice is a blend of availability and mission. Availability is, just talking facts here, a fun house mirror reflection of the regular civilian market because thats where the guns come from.

So yeah, their mission demands capacity, and in the modern market that capability is available. The notorious stendo is the criminal version of putting the M249 on the truck for ambush response. Now with AR/AK pistols they have extremely high capacity along with some degree of rifle caliber effectiveness, and can be concealed in vehicles or bags.

That doesn't mean you need to roll with a whole Batman belt, but it is indisputable that a degree of firepower that would have made national news in the 70s is pretty common now. Prepare accordingly and don't assume the threat will be a crackhead with a duct taped Charter Arms.

It's exceedingly rare for the AR/AK pistols and long guns to be used in random crime, but they are more and more popular in competition elimination events and grudge settling. Sometimes business take over robbers, but a minority.

I don't see much armor, either. What's becoming increasingly common is the Glock "switches". Metric **** ton of those out there now.