Medals for Drone "Pilots"

[RockofStrength]

I can see Achievement or Commendation medals for UAV folks but anythingmore degrades medals those who eat, sleep and crap in danger's backyard. As an EOD guy, I would think I earned my Bronze Star, Commendation and Achievement medals for wht I did on my Iraq and Afghan tours...not in a cube a few thousand miles away.

Is that not why there are medals that specifically award valor, perseverance, exceptional bravery etc in combat?

 

[donballz]

When I played little league, my team got last place but we all got participation trophies anyway. This seems a little like that.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

When I played little league, my team got last place but we all got participation trophies anyway. This seems a little like that.

You make that sound like UAV pilots are second-raters doing a ho-hum job instead of providing valuable tactical intelligence for hours at a time in a work environment no less demanding because they are not being shot at in person. You may as easily scorn the. Logistics guys who ensure the door-kickers have beans & bullets or the intelligence analysts whodevelop the targets from disparate slivers of data. They all help get the mission done and they are all important to preserving lives and resources in their own unique ways, even though they may not see a shot fired in anger.

 

[ryknoll3]

You make that sound like UAV pilots are second-raters doing a ho-hum job instead of providing valuable tactical intelligence for hours at a time in a work environment no less demanding because they are not being shot at in person. You may as easily scorn the. Logistics guys who ensure the door-kickers have beans & bullets or the intelligence analysts whodevelop the targets from disparate slivers of data. They all help get the mission done and they are all important to preserving lives and resources in their own unique ways, even though they may not see a shot fired in anger.

Do these people get medals for valor, unless they get caught in a convoy ambush and go above and beyond?

I'm all for UAV pilots getting recognized for the work that they do. I just don't think it should be the same recognition as someone who drags his buddy to safety under enemy fire or assaults a fixed position under overwhelming odds.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Do these people get medals for valor, unless they get caught in a convoy ambush and go above and beyond?

I'm all for UAV pilots getting recognized for the work that they do. I just don't think it should be the same recognition as someone who drags his buddy to safety under enemy fire or assaults a fixed position under overwhelming odds.

Without going back over the article, and recognizing my memory of the Order of Precedence of medals is possibly not correct, I think this was proposed to be right after the Bronze Star (which is the lowest precedence medal for valor under fire) and the Soldier's Medal (which is the highest precedence non-combat decoration). Although, if it were approved, the vagaries of "medal creep" would probably ensure it would be over-used, I can easily see such a decoration being awarded for actions which directly resulted in saving American or Allied lives by timely relay of intelligence data or by killing enemies in support of Americans or Allies.

 

[Enkrypter]

It's a distinctive service medal, and they deserve it. I don't agree with them getting combat action badges or other "in the sh@t" type medals, but then I think uncle sam feels the same way.

Drone pilots have a lot of firepower at their disposal and provide a critical service to our boys on the ground. If you save the lives of a whole platoon while sitting in your arm chair, I'm sure the platoon would agree you should be properly commended.

These guys have enough firepower at their disposal to cause an international incident of massive proportions. Operating under that kind of stress should be rewarded aptly in a manner that is commencerate to your duties.

I've been on a lot of forums and everyone is all up in arms about this. It's a distinctive service medal and nothing more. They aren't getting bronze stars... Besides, what's it matter to anyone not in the military or to someone who has never served?

 

[Enkrypter]

Officers don't join the service for medals, but everyone learns along the line that if they want to be promoted, they had better get as full a set of "gongs" as possible in order to be competitive with their peers.

Also, I've talked to a number of fighter pilots over the years and the last thing a fighter jock wants is to fly a desk. Flying a UAV is just as taxing, in its own way, as flying a fighter, even though the personal danger isn't as omnipresent as it is for a pilot or aircrew in combat operations. If the AF doesn't come up with some way to compensate UAV pilots for not getting to do what they joined up for - fly in actual hot fighter aircraft - they'll lose them and their expertise, so this idea, if it is accepted - more importantly if it is accepted by the UAV pilots - is a way to lessen the blow to the ego that comes of being a fighter pilot assigned to fly a UAV AND it may help to make them competitive for promotion.

It's already happening. The drone pilots where I was stationed in Iraq, were ex-USAF contractors. Most drones are equipped with surveillance packages, so civies can operate them. The weapons packages are flown by the boys at Langley and Creech.

All the stress, none of the benefits, and none of the respect... UAV is here to stay, and right now, most the pilots aren't.

 

[EOD Guy]

Blackhawk, Yes, I RSP'd many IEDs with robots, in the bomb suit, used tanks rounds, etc...believe it or not we had a 2 kw laser used to defeat IEDs, ordnance, etc...when I was in Kirkuk. The laser was fun, getting shot at and blown up wasn't. :-) Robot or not, the danger wasn't from the IED you knew about. It was from the ones you didn't see...then there are the snipers...and they loved EOD guys.

I'm not against them earning medals for exceptional conduct but whatever they earn, it should not be comparable to heroism medals like Bronze / Silver Star or others w/ valor. The medal they refer to would be between a Solder's/Airmen's medal and the Distinguished Flying Cross...both of these are higher than a Bronze Star. These people do not face mortal danger and their medals should reflect that. It should not be given more significance than those medals earned by troops amongst bad guys and on his turf. I just think this would cheapen medals earned by those who really stuck their neck out (sometimes loosing it) while the UAV operator watching said combat "earns" a higher medal...while thousands of miles away in a climate controlled "cube-pit", wondering if his 20 minute drive home will make him late for dinner.

Okay, I just made up the "Cube-Pit" thing as a friendly jab towards UAV guys but you get my point...really a medal higher than a Bronze Star?

 

[LEaSH]

Blackhawk makes a strong case - for now...

In the next several years however, there is going to be such a high demand for UAV operators that the common operators will be rewarded with pizza and Mountain Dew. Because that is what teen age gamers live on. And that's who will probably be guiding these things around our neighborhoods in the not-too-distant future.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Blackhawk makes a strong case - for now...

In the next several years however, there is going to be such a high demand for UAV operators that the common operators will be rewarded with pizza and Mountain Dew. Because that is what teen age gamers live on. And that's who will probably be guiding these things around our neighborhoods in the not-too-distant future.

I've got a former Crewchief who is now a CW2 Ops Officer in a UAV unit. It's somewhat difficult to reconcile what I know (which frankly isn't as much as I'd like to know) about the flight regimes the SP4 UAV operator flies in compared to the flight regimes of the Predator and larger UAVs, but I do know that it amounts to several tens of thousands of feet and alot more sophistication in the systems and performance-wise. I can say from my personal experience that flying a non-moving simulator is much harder, in certain ways, than flying by the seat-of-the-pants because so much of what we inherently perceive is affected by all our senses, not just sight/sound.

One other thing to keep in mind re: your remarks about "gamers" guiding UAVs around our neighborhoods. Aviation personnel, especially pilots, must exhibit a fair amount of maturity before they get turned loose with potential weapons like aircraft, especially armed aircraft. "Gamers" may have the aptitude to fly UAVs, but the military will be searching for attitudes as well; they won't want someone who is likely to shoot up the place for "fun" or because he is in a bad mood.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Blackhawk, Yes, I RSP'd many IEDs with robots, in the bomb suit, used tanks rounds, etc...believe it or not we had a 2 kw laser used to defeat IEDs, ordnance, etc...when I was in Kirkuk. The laser was fun, getting shot at and blown up wasn't. :-) Robot or not, the danger wasn't from the IED you knew about. It was from the ones you didn't see...then there are the snipers...and they loved EOD guys.

I'm not against them earning medals for exceptional conduct but whatever they earn, it should not be comparable to heroism medals like Bronze / Silver Star or others w/ valor. The medal they refer to would be between a Solder's/Airmen's medal and the Distinguished Flying Cross...both of these are higher than a Bronze Star. These people do not face mortal danger and their medals should reflect that. It should not be given more significance than those medals earned by troops amongst bad guys and on his turf. I just think this would cheapen medals earned by those who really stuck their neck out (sometimes loosing it) while the UAV operator watching said combat "earns" a higher medal...while thousands of miles away in a climate controlled "cube-pit", wondering if his 20 minute drive home will make him late for dinner.

Okay, I just made up the "Cube-Pit" thing as a friendly jab towards UAV guys but you get my point...really a medal higher than a Bronze Star?

As I said, all respect and honor to you guys who do that sort of thing. The point I was making was that you use remote tools to do your job as safely as possible; the current thinking is that UAVs do the same sort of thing for aerial surveillance, at less expense, and for greater time-on-station, than a manned aircraft could do it.

As for medals and the awarding thereof, we're already experiencing "medal creep" when the Bronze Star can be awarded for meritorious performance of duty in a war zone rather than for combat actions and gets distinguished by a (V) device. I'm not certain I share your views about this, although I certainly understand where you're coming from. If I'd been awarded a DFC instead of a Soldier's Medal, maybe I'd feel differently.

 

[jeremy]

Here is my point of contention for them earning an award higher than an ARCOM, or any award with Valor Capabilities.

Those of us who have been in the suck regardless of what are jobs may have been, placed Our lives in danger constantly. With more and more of the Weapons Capable UAVs flown from Offices Stateside, where the biggest danger that is truly faced is in their commutes to and from work. How stressful is your life when at the end of your shift you get to go home have a cold beer and nail a piece of ass...

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Here is my point of contention for them earning an award higher than an ARCOM, or any award with Valor Capabilities.

Those of us who have been in the suck regardless of what are jobs may have been, placed Our lives in danger constantly. With more and more of the Weapons Capable UAVs flown from Offices Stateside, where the biggest danger that is truly faced is in their commutes to and from work. How stressful is your life when at the end of your shift you get to go home have a cold beer and nail a piece of ass...

That point has been made repeatedly and was partially addressed upthread toward the beginning of the thread, IIRC. Not that it is likely to sway your opinion, or EOD Guy's, or anyone else who spends their days in harm's way.

However, in general, the only difference in physical danger between a UAV driver and an F-16 driver - as far as you're concerned (in terms of what you daily face in "the suck") is 30,000 ft and 8,000 miles; the fighter jock is only slightly less likely to have his day ruined by the bad guys than the UAV driver is to get killed in an accident on his way home.

For that matter, statistically, my heliborne brethren who operate in a much lower flight regime than the fighters are much less likely than you to have their day ruined by a bad guy as well. That's the nature of this particular piece of "suckage" we're involved in.

 

[jeremy]

That point has been made repeatedly and was partially addressed upthread toward the beginning of the thread, IIRC. Not that it is likely to sway your opinion, or EOD Guy's, or anyone else who spends their days in harm's way.

However, in general, the only difference in physical danger between a UAV driver and an F-16 driver - as far as you're concerned (in terms of what you daily face in "the suck") is 30,000 ft and 8,000 miles; the fighter jock is only slightly less likely to have his day ruined by the bad guys than the UAV driver is to get killed in an accident on his way home.

For that matter, statistically, my heliborne brethren who operate in a much lower flight regime than the fighters are much less likely than you to have their day ruined by a bad guy as well. That's the nature of this particular piece of "suckage" we're involved in.

Still the Zoomie in the Falcon, has the chance to lose his life if his craft is shot down or due to a failure on his part, same as the Blackhawk Drivers.

What happens to the UAV Operator if his bird is brought down?!
Oh yeah he goes home and has a beer. No different than the guys who have been swinging Satellites around for decades...

I have been on safe ground and conducted operations in support of those who where in the suck as well. Did we deserve anything special for it?! Not in my opinion, it was no different than if we would have gone to the range and shot Our Missiles.

 

[iChokePeople]

Would you also give awards (higher than "commendation"-level) to, for example, the intel analysts who watch the Predator feeds and pass that information along? We have (or had? Are they still doing that?) a bunch of them out here in Terre Haute at the airport.

 

[lucky4034]

I could believe that there are situations where drone pilots did there job well, thereby saving some of those with boots on the ground. They were never in danger, but they might be justified in receiving some type of recognition for that. I have never been in the military and don't know enough about military citations to have an opinion on what that should be.

Agreed... the goal is to improve the safety of boots on the ground. Should someone get recognition for saving lives? Sure....

.....Just so long as they aren't getting purple hearts for thumb blisters

 

[lucky4034]

Still the Zoomie in the Falcon, has the chance to lose his life if his craft is shot down or due to a failure on his part, same as the Blackhawk Drivers.

What happens to the UAV Operator if his bird is brought down?!
Oh yeah he goes home and has a beer. No different than the guys who have been swinging Satellites around for decades...

I have been on safe ground and conducted operations in support of those who where in the suck as well. Did we deserve anything special for it?! Not in my opinion, it was no different than if we would have gone to the range and shot Our Missiles.

If you were leading your fire team into an ambush where you and your fire group were certain to die and a drone pilot warned you of the danger or even supplied cover fire for you to get into a safe position and therefore saved your life... would you think he deserved some recognition?

Its a new military and medals are a tradition. Sometimes people get them when they didn't deserve them and sometimes those who deserve them don't get them... but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be awarded. Maybe its time to re-write some of the descriptions of some medals.

Drones are HUGE PART of modern warfare and are every bit as valuable as tank operators or radio operators.

I served as a field medic, but could never understand the mentality that some jobs were more important than others. I seen grunts talk **** about admins because "they aren't real military". That mentality is lame and so far off base....

Everyone has a role in the machine... whether you remove the gasket or the steering wheel, the machine doesn't run as efficiently. For me the admin guys were some of the most important... they made sure my paycheck got into my account, assured me my tax forms were filled out right and made sure my Will and my Life Insurance Policy was in order so when I was hanging out with the "real military" I didn't have to worry about my family not being able to eat or receive medical attention in my absence or receive life insurance should I die.

 

[jeremy]

If you were leading your fire team into an ambush where you and your fire group were certain to die and a drone pilot warned you of the danger or even supplied cover fire for you to get into a safe position and therefore saved your life... would you think he deserved some recognition?

Read my 2 posts earlier...

I have no problem with them earning recognition. I have a problem with the earning recognition that can be considered Valorous...

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Read my 2 posts earlier...

I have no problem with them earning recognition. I have a problem with the earning recognition that can be considered Valorous...

Which brings us back to the current "Bronze Star" and "Bronze Star (V)" issue. AFAIC, this is similar to "leadership tabs", "Expert Infantry Badge" vs "Combat Infantry Badge" vs "Combat Action Badge", etc.

I guess what it gets down to, for me anyway, is this: Is this a guy you're going to be competing against for promotion, or is he going to be bragging about it in the local bar? I don't think so. In my experience, the guys who've never done anything are more likely to brag about their medals than the ones who've seen others die without recognition. I don't think it will matter in the end.

 

[iChokePeople]

Hmm. Bronze Star? Or Air Medal? If the idea is to keep them competitive with their peers, and that's a valid concern, I *believe* (having never watched an Air Force promotion board or studied their stats) that you'd still see discrimination between the two. I've listened to lots of friends who were zoomie officers discuss the Air Force's preference toward pilots, and it SEEMS that this would play there -- "Oh, a Bronze Star -- he's just a DRONE pilot..." For the record, the other branches of service have the same issues, not trying to pick on the zoomies.