Mike Lamb - Searching your house with a shotgun

[EricG]

I have given up on the idea of having a Shotty for HD. For two main reasons:
1. They are just way too loud for engaging an attacker indoors.
2. One handed manipulation is not optional, especially if you have an intruder way up close.

A handgun is my go to for home defense, preferably with a can attached.

 

[ViperJock]

Tag

so I finally got around to watching these. The guy clearly has a light on his weapon so I'm not sure why that comment came up.

The stuff he teaches is pretty consistent with the better classes I have attended. I have, however, also traded my "home defense shotty" for an AR and handgun combo. The reason: precision. The ability to take out a brain stem without collateral damage such as my child's head a foot lower. I think that a shotgun is less reliable for a surgical strike.

I'm gonna start a poll to see what INGO thinks regarding precision in home defense concepts. Please share your opinion.

 

[Steve MI]

Nothing is ideal one handed manipulations while under attack period anything fired indoors is loud

here are your ratings

18 _" barrel

156.30dB

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel

155.5dB

9mm

159.8 dB

 

[Steve MI]

Tag

so I finally got around to watching these. The guy clearly has a light on his weapon so I'm not sure why that comment came up.

The stuff he teaches is pretty consistent with the better classes I have attended. I have, however, also traded my "home defense shotty" for an AR and handgun combo. The reason: precision. The ability to take out a brain stem without collateral damage such as my child's head a foot lower. I think that a shotgun is less reliable for a surgical strike.

I'm gonna start a poll to see what INGO thinks regarding precision in home defense concepts. Please share your opinion.

You obviously haven't pattered your shotguns it is very capable with proper ammo to take head shots out to 12 yards with proper ammo and yes buck shot i mean by that i have seen it done with guns out to 15 yards with the correct load of buck shot..... at much closer distance than a foot separation this again is one of those shotgun myths...

 

[Steve MI]

 

[ViperJock]

You obviously haven't pattered your shotguns it is very capable with proper ammo to take head shots out to 12 yards with proper ammo and yes buck shot i mean by that i have seen it done with guns out to 15 yards with the correct load of buck shot..... at much closer distance than a foot separation this again is one of those shotgun myths...

Correct. I have almost no experience with shooting self-defense loads. I still think a single 5.56 is less like to cause collateral damage than multiple BBs. Not to mention the fact that I'm not a big guy and a 12g tends to recoil more than an AR.

 

[N8RV]

Nothing is ideal one handed manipulations while under attack period anything fired indoors is loud

here are your ratings

18 _" barrel

156.30dB

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel

155.5dB

9mm

159.8 dB

That is an interesting comparison, Steve. In my own internal debate of whether to carry a 9mm or .45ACP, I was leaning toward the 9mm due to the lower noise signature. Considering that it's a crapshoot where a lethal force encounter will occur, but there's probably an even chance that it could happen indoors (home, work) or in a confined space (car), I thought that a 9mm might cause less permanent hearing loss than a .45ACP. Apparently not.

Funny how the .45ACP sure sounds louder at a range, as does a 12-gauge shotgun. If I fire a 9mm and switch to a .45, invariably someone will wander over and say, "What you shootin' -- a .45?"

 

[Jackson]

You obviously haven't pattered your shotguns it is very capable with proper ammo to take head shots out to 12 yards with proper ammo and yes buck shot i mean by that i have seen it done with guns out to 15 yards with the correct load of buck shot..... at much closer distance than a foot separation this again is one of those shotgun myths...

Its completely doable. But it complicates the situation. You have to know with certainty how big your pattern is at the specific range of your target. If you've got plenty of experience with your shotgun, and the pattern of your load in your specific barrel is very consistent (never has random fliers, has a centered shape), you'll know if you can take the shot. A carbine just removes some of the things that have to be considered before letting the shot fly.

 

[rhino]

I've patterned my shotgun with buckshot and I agree that it's very possible to make precision shots at close ranges (12 yards and less for my gun). If I had a choice, I would probably prefer a different tool for that application. The potential problem I see involves random occurrences. Even if the marksmanship is ideal and it's the same lot (or even box) of buckshot from the exact same gun, there are random events that could cause a pellet or two to stray from the expected and generally repeatable pattern. Sure, this can happen even with a single projectile from a rifled barrel, but I think it's significantly more likely with buckshot from a shotgun. On the other hand, if my shotgun is what I had and I really needed to take that shot, I'd do it. I'd also offset my point of aim a little away from what I was trying to not hit just in case, but I don't know if that's a good practice or not.

 

[lovemachine]

Nothing is ideal one handed manipulations while under attack period anything fired indoors is loud

here are your ratings

18 _" barrel

156.30dB

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel

155.5dB

9mm

159.8 dB

Suppressed Glock 19 FTW.

 

[EricG]

That is an interesting comparison, Steve. In my own internal debate of whether to carry a 9mm or .45ACP, I was leaning toward the 9mm due to the lower noise signature. Considering that it's a crapshoot where a lethal force encounter will occur, but there's probably an even chance that it could happen indoors (home, work) or in a confined space (car), I thought that a 9mm might cause less permanent hearing loss than a .45ACP. Apparently not.

Funny how the .45ACP sure sounds louder at a range, as does a 12-gauge shotgun.

Agreed. For me, thats all that matters. What the ears absorb.
Ive had the unfortunate event of absorbing a +P 45 acp indoors and a 12 gauge outdoors without ear pro. If I had to choose, im taking the 45 inside. The concussion from a defensive 12 g round just plain hurts.

 

[actaeon277]

That is an interesting comparison, Steve. In my own internal debate of whether to carry a 9mm or .45ACP, I was leaning toward the 9mm due to the lower noise signature. Considering that it's a crapshoot where a lethal force encounter will occur, but there's probably an even chance that it could happen indoors (home, work) or in a confined space (car), I thought that a 9mm might cause less permanent hearing loss than a .45ACP. Apparently not.

Funny how the .45ACP sure sounds louder at a range, as does a 12-gauge shotgun. If I fire a 9mm and switch to a .45, invariably someone will wander over and say, "What you shootin' -- a .45?"

Remember, the decibal scale is misleading. A change of 10db is actually 100 times.

 

[actaeon277]

Decibel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Steve MI]

having fired shotguns handguns and carbines in a house and other buildings both with and with out ear pro and years of hunting..and several cases of auditoury exclusion kicking in at times OK yes i get it trust me.. i also want the most effective tool for the job as well

most cant shoot a pistol well enough on the square range in good conditions under no stress...let alone 3am heart and mind racing low light etc...
again to each is own though i see it often in a lot of shoot house classes i teach yearly or take

then again if you have time and layered defense in place why not keep a set of electronic ear pro next to the gun? it can only help if you have time to grab your gun you should have time to grab your active earpro..?

then again would i want my 1500 suppressed glock sitting in police lockup for months ? and have it shown as a murderess weapon all it takes is a little doubt in a jury's mind if it went that far( its a what if i am tossing out)

there are pleanty of folks who have fired in defense and never have heard the shots go off let alone other around them the human body does amazing things

 

[Roland of Gilead]

Thanks for for posting the vids esrice. I'm a supporter of the shot gun for home defense based on the simple physics of the OO-buck.

The idea of moving the butt of the stock closer to my center mass has never occurred to me to reduce recoil. I need to do some work on my pecs for this technique.

As Mike said the #4 buck is an awesome load for home defense, but it is hard to find.
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If one is shooting inside ones house to stop an intruder I can not understand the concern of ear damage.
The SHTF, unless the weapon is suppressed it will do some ear damage, probably or maybe.
Picking a home defense weapon based on it's noise is asinine.

 

[Steve MI]

there is a lot of number around if you look for it also using a good technique such as push/pull or stretching the gun/or ripping the gun in half technique will work very well, number 4 is the bare bones at least i would use i run OO #1

 

[rhino]

"My" shotgun is now a 20 ga, so I'm pretty limited in terms of available buckshot loads. So far I've found Remington and Winchester #3 buckshot. I haven't patterned the Win, but the Remington looks really good on paper at 15 yards and less, and it goes to where I am looking when I have the gun mounted properly. So far the only downside is that the Rem #3 buck loads are a tad longer than other ammo I've used, so I can only get 7 rounds in my tube without pushing really, really hard. I can easily get 8 rounds of any birdshot or target loads I've tried.

 

[EricG]

there is a lot of number around if you look for it also using a good technique such as push/pull or stretching the gun/or ripping the gun in half technique will work very well, number 4 is the bare bones at least i would use i run OO #1

The push/pull technique works very well for me. Lightens recoil quite a bit.
Also, IMHO, Id never neuter a shotgun. 00 buck or slugs for defensive purposes.

 

[Steve MI]

try the federal 20 gauge number 4 buck its pretty good in several i have shot

 

[rhino]

try the federal 20 gauge number 4 buck its pretty good in several i have shot

I've never seen any actually available anywhere, but when I do I will check it out. Do you know how many pellets? I think my #3 buck loads have 9.