More down range photographer

[HICKMAN]

So you are saying you allocate critical resources towards this particular type of training because it is the best return on your dollar for ensuring your survival of potentially lethal situations you are likely to face in your day to day routine?

So you can tell me when a home invasion is going to happen?

A car-jacking?

Get attacked by methheads while out on a bike ride in the evening?

An active shooter at College Mall in Bloomington when I take my kids school clothes shopping?

No??



I can't tell when those things are going to happen either, but all of those scenarios will probably have friendlies downrange, not behind the 180.

So I try to get as much training as my little budget and ammo stock can afford. When I can't afford to go to training, I study as much from as many other places as I can.

I most certainly do not carry my Glock for "recreational purposes"... that's what USPSA and Steel matches are for.


But that's just me.... I don't know what's going to happen. If I never had to draw my gun again for the rest of my life, I'd be a happy man.

 

[shibumiseeker]

So you can tell me when a home invasion is going to happen?

A car-jacking?

Get attacked by methheads while out on a bike ride in the evening?

An active shooter at College Mall in Bloomington when I take my kids school clothes shopping?

No??



I can't tell when those things are going to happen either, but all of those scenarios will probably have friendlies downrange, not behind the 180.

So I try to get as much training as my little budget and ammo stock can afford. When I can't afford to go to training, I study as much from as many other places as I can.

So you are proficient and prepared for the scenarios in life that are more likely than any of the ones you listed above that have nothing to do with drawing a weapon?

 

[CPT Nervous]

BOOM. Just sank your battleship.

Tried to rep ya, but I gotta Obama it around. Even though I know you don't agree with me on this, that post was hilarious.

 

[Josh Ward]

So you are proficient and prepared for the scenarios in life that are more likely than any of the ones you listed above that have nothing to do with drawing a weapon?

Which are ??? You've lost me here with this line of thinking...

 

[esrice]

Which are ??? You've lost me here with this line of thinking...

I don't necessarily agree with his whole premise, but I get what he's saying.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I get that he's asking if those of us who train with firearms also seek to become proficient in other areas that could enhance our survivability (probably even more so)-- like defensive driving, situational awareness, medical life-saving skills, disaster preparedness, etc.

I agree that seeking out training in those areas is important-- we're more likely to be called to save a life than to take one. I just disagree that simply because its less likely we would need to use our firearm that training realistically is of lesser importance.

 

[HICKMAN]

So you are proficient and prepared for the scenarios in life that are more likely than any of the ones you listed above that have nothing to do with drawing a weapon?

is anyone?

By your thinking, it's very likely that I will never be robbed, have my home invaded or come across a shooting at a mall or movie theater.


Therefore, I should not have to carry a gun... because the likely hood of my needing it is low.


Yet... I still carry one.

 

[Shay]

If you carry a gun in public, you need to be able to shoot near people who don't need to be shot. The real world doesn't have 180 degree firing lines. The real world doesn't have "down range". And yet, the real world is where we all carry guns and have the prospect of someday having to shoot someone. Yes, it IS that simple.

This is not ninja skills. This is not tier 1 operator stuff.

The Snake Drill is 100 times more scary with potential angle issue than having someone forward of the firing line. I've done it a few times in various classes and it's about an 8 on the pucker factor. But I have no regrets and I learned a lot about myself each and every time I participated.

 

[MikeDVB]

If you carry a gun in public, you need to be able to shoot near people who don't need to be shot. The real world doesn't have 180 degree firing lines. The real world doesn't have "down range". And yet, the real world is where we all carry guns and have the prospect of someday having to shoot someone. Yes, it IS that simple.

Arguably if one could make sure that the real-world did have a 180 degree firing line and 'down range' they would. The simple fact that real life is not like that does not, in my honest opinion, justify unsafe actions even in a controlled environment.

Nobody wants to shoot at an assailant surrounded by innocent people - but you do what you have to do.

That said, how is setting a camera on a tripod any less useful in training than an actual person? I mean you don't shoot at actual people in your training so if your intention was to practice *not* hitting certain things you don't need a real person [or cameraman] for that.

The photographer can get the images without putting themselves on the wrong side of the firing line if they wish and, if that camera were to be shot ... Well I think that photographer would be glad they were not standing there.

If you want to put something down-range that isn't supposed to be shot as a part of training - make it a target analog and not a real person, imho.

That said - if you want to go on the wrong side of the firing line and take pictures - that's your issue. I wouldn't fire with you on that side of the line without a solid waiver signed by you and in my possession.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

Shay
"The Snake Drill is 100 times more scary with potential angle issue than having someone forward of the firing line. I've done it a few times in various classes and it's about an 8 on the pucker factor. But I have no regrets and I learned a lot about myself each and every time I participated."


So the snake drill makes you more uncomfortable than shooting a target within a foot or so of a photographer?

 

[MangoTango]

No one is "putting" the photographer down there., he chooses to do it. Just like journalist's going into war zones or riding in the front line. The bonus is some additional confidence of the shooter and cool pictures. Everyone here usually fights for individual rights and yet everyone is dictating what the photographer should or shouldn't do. If you don't like it tell them in advance of class, don't shoot or don't even attend. That is your choice. Should our next debate be about you attending or not attending?

 

[bwframe]

I'd like to see some unedited video from the downrange cameraman's perspective. While the claims are that his positioning is off target, I wonder with draws, re-holstering, reloading and other gun manipulations, just how often he does have muzzles pointed at him?

 

[cedartop]

Shay
"The Snake Drill is 100 times more scary with potential angle issue than having someone forward of the firing line. I've done it a few times in various classes and it's about an 8 on the pucker factor. But I have no regrets and I learned a lot about myself each and every time I participated."


So the snake drill makes you more uncomfortable than shooting a target within a foot or so of a photographer?

I am not Shay of course, but yes, I would never use the snake drill in a class that I was not totally familiar with everyone and their abilities in it.

 

[MikeDVB]

No one is "putting" the photographer down there., he chooses to do it.

That, unfortunately in our litigious society, does not waive your liability should you accidentally shoot him - training or not.

I would be ok with it if I had a solid waiver signed by the photographer - a waiver that my attorney assured me would cover me as much as legally possible. No waiver = no shooting.

That said - I would consult with said attorney as to whether such a waiver could also protect an individual from criminal liability as well as civil liability. I'm not going to jail and losing my gun rights because you chose to go on the wrong side of the firing line! Unlike real-life - this is a situation you do have control over.

 

[bwframe]

Is this the mysterious "snake drill" we are discussing?

[video=youtube_share;TNf60egoLLQ]http://youtu.be/TNf60egoLLQ[/video]

 

[shibumiseeker]

I don't necessarily agree with his whole premise, but I get what he's saying.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I get that he's asking if those of us who train with firearms also seek to become proficient in other areas that could enhance our survivability (probably even more so)-- like defensive driving, situational awareness, medical life-saving skills, disaster preparedness, etc.

I agree that seeking out training in those areas is important-- we're more likely to be called to save a life than to take one. I just disagree that simply because its less likely we would need to use our firearm that training realistically is of lesser importance.

You mostly got my premise right, but expand it to cover how Hickman proved my point quite nicely. I would never disagree that training is important, I consider it very important. But if one only has a limited amount of training budget/time then one is BEST served by training for the LIKELIEST things that will happen in life. Hence my comment about recreational training which he apparently took exception to.

As I said before, I'm not trying to change anyone's minds here, it's very clear from reading the thread that folks are pretty set on this issue. I just wanted to weigh in with my views as well since it is a semi-free country and I am entitled to my opinion as well no matter how ignorant it may be ;-)

 

[Shay]

So the snake drill makes you more uncomfortable than shooting a target within a foot or so of a photographer?

I won't go into detail due to the maturity of some in the audience here, but it really depends on how it is set up. There are variations; some mild; some not. All involve a person or persons forward of where you will be shooting from.

Shooting with a human standing in close proximity to a target doesn't really rate on my pucker scale. And, on the other side, I have also been near targets being shot many, many times.

The unspoken subtext of this entire discussion is that people claim violating the 180 degree range rule is so dangerous that it can't be done safely in a controlled environment. But those same people carry a gun to the mall and expect that they are going to have fantastic judgement and clear decision making when the time comes to rise to the occasion.

Carrying a gun in public is serious. Shooting a gun in public is very serious. I hope there are no people and only tripods around if you have to shoot someone. Or if there are living people inconsiderate enough to get near your gunfight that you get a signed waiver from them prior to taking a shot.

 

[printcraft]

I won't go into detail due to the maturity of some in the audience here, but it really depends on how it is set up. There are variations; some mild; some not. All involve a person or persons forward of where you will be shooting from.

Shooting with a human standing in close proximity to a target doesn't really rate on my pucker scale. And, on the other side, I have also been near targets being shot many, many times.

The unspoken subtext of this entire discussion is that people claim violating the 180 degree range rule is so dangerous that it can't be done safely in a controlled environment. But those same people carry a gun to the mall and expect that they are going to have fantastic judgement and clear decision making when the time comes to rise to the occasion.

Carrying a gun in public is serious. Shooting a gun in public is very serious. I hope there are no people and only tripods around if you have to shoot someone. Or if there are living people inconsiderate enough to get near your gunfight that you get a signed waiver from them prior to taking a shot.

So I have to shoot at people before I'm qualified to carry a gun in public where I don't shoot at people?

 

[bwframe]

Is there any way to verify that shooting with humans downrange actually better prepares a shooter for a real self defense shooting?

 

[printcraft]

Is there any way to verify that shooting with humans downrange actually better prepares a shooter for a real self defense shooting?

No. But it's ****ing awesome and you look cool doing it.

 

[Shay]

So I have to shoot at people before I'm qualified to carry a gun in public where I don't shoot at people?

Typing sassy posts on the Internet is the same as quality training. You'll be fine.