Moving targets

[cschwanz]

I remember that class. Manny also was teaching tracking a swinger. Shooting alphas at the top of the arc. Using to passes to complete the shots. Which all in all seems to more accurate but eats up a lot of time.

Yep! Sometimes to have to track a swinger by design of the stage. If given the option, ill ALWAYS take it near the stopping point of the arc tho.

 

[sv40sw45]

Wait till you see the swinger setup at SCGC in the July match. It kinda looks like Travis's video. :-)

 

[bwframe]

I think swingers are a lot of fun. For the most part I usually don't have problems making good hits. I am just not very fast and might have to let it swing by twice, depends on how it is set up. Drop turns usually are not too bad. It is the clam shells that get me.

I like the challenge. It took me a while and occasionally a foot up my tail to not be intimidated by them.

 

[Coach]

Some numbers that are real for rvb, and anyone else who cares.

We had a stage in the Warsaw Instructional League today. 2 pepper poppers, 1 static paper, 1 max trap and 1 drop turner.

I shot it three different ways as fast as I could be confident of getting hits. I hope to have video to post of each.

The left popper activated the Drop Turner and the Right popper the Max trap.

Run 1:
Shooting it all so as to not leave any points on the table. I shot right popper, static paper, Max trap, left steel and then drop turner. I scored 36 point out of 40 possible in 5.37 seconds. Hit factor of 6.7039

I could do this all day time after time with the same points or better. It was a conservative approach.

Run 2:
Blowing off the drop turner and shooting it the as fast as I could be confident of hits. I went right steel, left steel, static paper and max trap. This put all of the shooting between activating steel and the last shots. Some might call this aggressive and some would say it is conservative. I think it is a nice balanced approach. I scored 28 out of the 30 points I was shooting for in 3.36 seconds, but I left ten points on the table. Hit factor was 8.3333. I could shoot it this way over and over with the same or better results. It was within my wheelhouse.

Run 3:
I was urged by Bob to do a third run. Right popper, Left popper, Max trap, Drop turner, and static paper. This was leaving no points on the table, and being more aggressive. Bob was sure I could do it. I thought I might be able to do it.

I have 39 points on target in 4.57 seconds for a hit factor of 8.5339.
This was much more aggressive. I obviously could do it but I cannot say I could pull it off three times in a row.

That was all done cold without warming up or anything for RUN 1

Much later after explaining the stage to the class and demonstrating how to shoot it to the class a couple of different ways. I cranked the intensity up a notch. I said that I would go right popper left popper and static paper, max trap and then the drop turner. The support and confidence from the peanut gallery was lacking. No way was uttered by more than one. After having had at least five views of it and having shot it other ways I thought it was possible, but I was uncertain I could get both on the drop turner but there was nothing to lose. I think I said a real man would do it this way.

I scored a clean 40 points out of 40 in 3.90 seconds. It was as flawless as I am currently capable of doing at this time. I don't know if I could do it again or not. Hit factor 10.2564. I seriously doubt that I would try it that way in a major match. Crash and burn possibility was huge.

rvb I will predict will say something like; "I told you so."

I am going to say I will take 8.333 HF that I know I can do all the time with little risk, and make someone lay it on the line and execute to beat me.

I am not going to shoot drop turners unless the stage design is very good.

 

[chezuki]

Ok, I'm still a noob so help me understand this. Wouldn't ignoring the drop turner be 2 mikes and a FTE for -30? Or do the mikes not count since its a disappearing target?

 

[downrange72]

Ok, I'm still a noob so help me understand this. Wouldn't ignoring the drop turner be 2 mikes and a FTE for -30? Or do the mikes not count since its a disappearing target?

Disappearing targets are no penalty mikes

 

[chezuki]

Disappearing targets are no penalty mikes

Thanks!

 

[jakemartens]

I had a lot of issues that day. I'm going to blame 3 hours of sleep, driving 2 hours, listening to Jake talk on the way there and anticipating a repeat performance on the way home .

I have sent two emails to Mitchell, with no return. I wonder if the guy is even still in business.

How am I to blame?

You will need to call Jimmie or Arnie Mitchell, bullets are their main business and your emails are probably buried

 

[rvb]

It seems the conversation has changed from "should we take one shot vs two on the movers" to "should I shoot a disappearing target at all" .... Largely the same, but I will say there are a FEW times when the stage design makes it better to leave a disappearing target.

Some numbers that are real for rvb, and anyone else who cares.

Here are some more numbers that are real, but from real matches....

A recent great stage at ACC that had an array that I shot in the order of activator/static/activator/swinger/peek-a-boo. The movers weren't disappearing, but that wouldn't have changed how I shot it... The stage had everything, tight shots around no shoots, movers, and hosers.
5: Hall Run Unofficial Combined Stage Results

This one had a disappearing DT. I played around on the calculator deciding what to do.... I went for it. Two Ds; slightly better than breaking even, but not stellar. Had I missed it, I would basically have been back at the conservative don't-shoot-it score.
http://combinedresults.info/index.php/stage/35212

rvb I will predict will say something like; "I told you so."

I am going to say I will take 8.333 HF that I know I can do all the time with little risk, and make someone lay it on the line and execute to beat me.

What I'll say is that sounds like a C/B-class strategy coming from a M-class shooter. I have more faith in your abilities to get the hits than that. Its a question of planning to leave the points behind vs trying for the points and possibly leaving them behind....

The only time I'm inclined to play it that conservative is if I'm the first shooter and don't get any real looks at the timing. I'm sure ill have my crash and burn moments in the future and you'll get your turn to say 'I told you so', but so far those have been the exception rather than the rule.

It always looks more difficult during the walk through than it does when looking through the sights.

Gotta love Freestyle!

-rvb

 

[rvb]

It's ok to do both, too.... track it to the ambush spot... maybe one shot while it's moving, another while it's "stopped." This way you aren't waiting on it to get to the ambush point. waiting is bad.

notice in the vid how long he waited from the time he was indexed on target to the point he put rounds out at the 'ambush' point (@1.15). Also notice how he shot how I describe above in the opening sequence when he shot them all at once obviously with more emphasis on speed....

[NOW I'm getting into the 'beyond basics' stuff]

'See what you need to see.'

-rvb

Took these two screenshots from the vid to better show this. Notice both images are just after the gun is fired and the brass can be seen to the right of the gun in both...

-rvb

 

[Coach]

What I'll say is that sounds like a C/B-class strategy coming from a M-class shooter. I have more faith in your abilities to get the hits than that. Its a question of planning to leave the points behind vs trying for the points and possibly leaving them behind....

-rvb

These type of you don't have the balls, statements have caused me more problems in my life than I care to remember. Too old and experienced to bite on that.

I am going to choose to push somewhere else in the match rather than with drop turners. I shot all the drop turners at Area 5 this year and only had 1 NPM, but the stage design was so good that there was not point in passing them up. I find that to be rare.

I do love the freestyle aspect if this game.

 

[rvb]

These type of you don't have the balls, statements have caused me more problems in my life than I care to remember. Too old and experienced to bite on that.

That wasn't the intent of my statement, but I see that's how it can be read. Sorry for that.

My intent was that I think you have the skill to get those points, and that often the timing of the movers seems darn near impossible when looking at them in the walkthrough, or from several yards back while somone else is shooting, but once you're behind the gun it's amazing how much time you actually have.

-rvb

 

[cschwanz]

After this thread, I was hoping to see some DT at the sectional match. Doesn't look like there are any though.

 

[Coach]

After this thread, I was hoping to see some DT at the sectional match. Doesn't look like there are any though.

No there won't be any.

 

[rvb]

but I will say there are a FEW times when the stage design makes it better to leave a disappearing target.

Sometimes I let the stage decide for me....

I was tempted to leave a pretty fast disappearing target (max trap) at Warsaw this weekend. On my initial pre-match look, I had it figured out when and where to hit the activator so I could see the DT and get the hits. As I looked at it during the formal walkthrough I didn't like that I was going to have to set up on an extra position (find the exact spot), add a transition, etc to get it done. I started to get the feeling I was going to break even at best to leaving it, and loose points if I didn't get all As, so I changed my plan.

I decided to shoot the arrays just like I would if the target was wide open and static (which meant a reload and moving between positions between activating and shooting the target). If I got to the target and it was available to shoot, I would... if not, I'd ignore it and go on... I really had doubts I could get the reload done and move in time.

I pulled it off w/ 2As and no holes in the NS, and I estimate I gained approximately .3 HF (~5 match points) over both not shooting it and my original plan.

If there hadn't been other targets I needed to engage from that position, I'm pretty sure I would have left it as the time to setup in an extra position would have washed out the points.

Sometimes it's fun to go for it just to see if you can! Especially knowing there's no real penalty if you screw it up...

-rvb

 

[mongo404]

Sometimes I let the stage decide for me....

I was tempted to leave a pretty fast disappearing target (max trap) at Warsaw this weekend. On my initial pre-match look, I had it figured out when and where to hit the activator so I could see the DT and get the hits. As I looked at it during the formal walkthrough I didn't like that I was going to have to set up on an extra position (find the exact spot), add a transition, etc to get it done. I started to get the feeling I was going to break even at best to leaving it, and loose points if I didn't get all As, so I changed my plan.

I decided to shoot the arrays just like I would if the target was wide open and static (which meant a reload and moving between positions between activating and shooting the target). If I got to the target and it was available to shoot, I would... if not, I'd ignore it and go on... I really had doubts I could get the reload done and move in time.

I pulled it off w/ 2As and no holes in the NS, and I estimate I gained approximately .3 HF (~5 match points) over both not shooting it and my original plan.

If there hadn't been other targets I needed to engage from that position, I'm pretty sure I would have left it as the time to setup in an extra position would have washed out the points.

Sometimes it's fun to go for it just to see if you can! Especially knowing there's no real penalty if you screw it up...

-rvb

That was challenging enough without the reload. But definitely doable. But there could have been a penalty with the no-shoot in play, bobble the reload and rush the shot. (OUCH)
I agree its fun to go for it. You have to push your abilities to the limits or you will never know what you are capable of.

 

[cedartop]

Okay, so I think I am going to tack on here instead of starting a new thread. Last night I was watching the IDPA 2011 World Championship dvd that came with my recent IDPA signup packet. There seemed to be quite a few swingers used, both as shoot and no shot targets. I am wondering how valuable it would be to get a swinger for myself? Both from a preparing for competition standpoint, but as a real world skill builder as well. Or is this just a niche thing that isn't worth the time unless you are top level?

 

[jakemartens]

Most competitions are going to use some type of moving targets like swingers, max traps, etc

learning to shoot a swinger and moving targets is a huge advantage and can be carried over from competition to self defense

 

[rvb]

No sure if it's worth investing in your own, that's up to you.... Once you shoot a few in some matches and learn the timing, they aren't that hard. As for how much they translate to "real life," well, maybe.... Not sure how many people I've seen bob back and forth with predictable timing. Some benefit in learning to track a target, and lead it if there is some distance involved.

-rvb

 

[Coach]

I think a drop turner can be more relevant for real world training because you can have someone else activate it with a rope and get a visual start that has to be fast. Swingers you will have figured out pretty quick and I agree with rvb that they may not be a real world.

With a swinger you can either track it or ambush it as the method of shooting them. If it is a swinging no shoot then it is even easier. I would say it is not worth buying one.