Muzzleloader experts, I need an education

[Landon]

I also am considering picking up my first muzzleloader. I think I am going to go with a CVA Optima V2 with the stainless barrel. Obviously from my research I understand cleaning is highly important. My question is what is really needed? It seems like CVA makes all kinds of products for cleaning. Do I need them all? Muzzle-loaders.com has a cleaning kit for $90, is that my best route? I don't really want to spend that much out the gate but if its needed then I don't mind as I want to be able to properly take care of the gun.

Here is a link to the kit: https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/acces...it-aa1721.html

Here is a link to the gun: https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/cva-o...pr2020ssc.html

 

[sugarcreekbrass]

The gun should come with some of the tools needed. You will need a wire brush, jag, breech plug brush, q-tips, toothbrush, patches, breech plug grease, black powder solvent, and gun oil. As far as convenience, that kit has it all. You could get the basics and save some money.

 

[Hookeye]

Shotgun cleaning brush.........but buy one just for the MZ.

 

[Mgderf]

You will need,

Bore brush
Jag
patches
HOT soapy water

and that's about it.
The CVA V2 has a removable breech plug that facilitates easy cleaning.
Use "Bore Butter" for lube and nothing else. No "gun oil" and no Windex!

People put too much emphasis on cleaning materials.
Hot soapy water works best.

 

[natdscott]

You will need,

Bore brush
Jag
patches
HOT soapy water...

Use "Bore Butter" for lube and nothing else. No "gun oil" and no Windex!...

Hot soapy water works best.

Actually, no. Wipe Out foam works great for either blackpowder OR smokeless muzzleloaders, and requires none of the hand-wringing, or boiling water that traditional cleaning methods always have. I grew up using the old ways, and they can work fine, so don't misunderstand me.

That said, a decent .50 brush and jag, some flannel patches, a toothbrush, and a can of Wipeout is a far sight better way to live...and a lot of guys already HAVE that stuff for their CF rifles.

-Nate

 

[output]

Great info! I needed it as well.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

You will need,

Bore brush
Jag
patches
HOT soapy water

and that's about it.
The CVA V2 has a removable breech plug that facilitates easy cleaning.
Use "Bore Butter" for lube and nothing else. No "gun oil" and no Windex!

People put too much emphasis on cleaning materials.
Hot soapy water works best.

^^^^This.
My old-school TC Hawken doesn't have a removable breech plug, so I've always taken off the barrel, remove the nipple, and put it in a bucket of hot soapy water and go at it with a jag and a thick patch until it's clean. Then dry it off and swab the bore the TC bore butter and a light coat of 3 in 1 oil on the outside. That's worked for me for 30 years.

I don't shoot it much these days, but after I switched to bore butter, loading, shooting, and cleaning has been much easier.

I've always shot a patched round ball and iron sights and as long as I can continue to group small at 50 yards with that set-up, that gun will continue to be my go-to deer gun.

 

[Mgderf]

Actually, no. Wipe Out foam works great for either blackpowder OR smokeless muzzleloaders, and requires none of the hand-wringing, or boiling water that traditional cleaning methods always have. I grew up using the old ways, and they can work fine, so don't misunderstand me.

That said, a decent .50 brush and jag, some flannel patches, a toothbrush, and a can of Wipeout is a far sight better way to live...and a lot of guys already HAVE that stuff for their CF rifles.

-Nate

Well, you learn something new everyday.
I have never heard of "Wipe Out" foam, but now I'll have to go looking.
I have used hop soapy water and a hair blow drier for decades with great success but I'm always looking for an easier/quicker way to achieve the same results.

 

[natdscott]

Only thing I will say though, is that you really need to use a denatured alcohol or acetone patch or two (followed by a dry patch and a dry-fired #11, if applicable) to make double-sure the bore is dry before loading. The Wipe Out has a rust inhibitor that while very effective, might cause an errant first shot. I can't say, because I never tried it, but Kroil surely does send a wild first round flier!



Also (I lied about the "only" part above), acetone helps cut out the plastic fouling if you use sabot bullets, where Wipeout won't really get that out. I used THOR copper conicals, so I forgot about plastic altogether.

-nate

 

[Contender]

Savage smokeless and all the post about their specific cleaning methods become mute. That's what I did about 10 years ago. Accurate, hard hitting and I did not clean it at the end of last season.

Interestingly I am putting together another encore to try some bh209 in. Have the frame and barrel but still need the butt and forend. Was actually going to get a smokeless barrel made for it but have not been inclined to spend the cash for it.

 

[Dirty Steve]

BH209,....switched my boys to it when it first came out. It is really hot and shoots clean. They shoot about 10% less volume now using BH209 than they did with Triple 7 with zero loss of accuracy. Their load is 90 grains of BH209 under a 200 gr Shockwave. Have not ran it through a chrono, but I'd bet the velocity is greater with less volume. It has a distinct crack, different than Triple 7 or Pyrogeek. It is absolute the easiest clean-up ever. I shoot Goex 3F and patched round balls in my traditional rock-lock guns (anything else would be blasphemy), but my boys do and always will shoot BH209. I drank the kool-aide and liked it,a lot.

Dirty Steve

 

[natdscott]

Savage smokeless and all the post about their specific cleaning methods become mute.

Not really. I still clean my smokeless rifle with....

...Wipe Out.

-Nate

 

[ru44mag]

My last BP rig was my Hawken Silver Elite.
It had the QLA (hate that friggin thing).
It would throw fliers off and on, never knew when.
Groups size wasn't super either when it did behave.

My best and super accurate TC's............did not have QLA. Coincidence?

Not a fan of BP subs, esp American Pioneer. Great clean up.............sucks in consistency. Dunno if they ever got that straightened out.

I did get my TC HSE to behave when switching to musket cap and T7. That and TC Maxi Hunters. I wouldn't shoot past 100 in case it started to act up (still should keep them in the kill).

Most temperamental and face busting MZ I ever had.
Dang it was pretty.

Did have a couple of the cheaper Knights and scoped 'em, they shot great.
Buddy picked up a like new Wolverine, stainless with camo stock..........$100.

That with a 209 conversion would do all I need.

But as soon as I scored one I'd probably start cussing..........although the removeable breech did make it nice to not have to shoot n clean after the hunt was over.

Eh, I'm too grouchy to mess with MZ anymore.

LOL. This all sounds like me. I haven't needed my muzzle loaders for a long time, but I had 2 of the 3 out last night. Trying to decide which one to take out next week. Would like to add one antlerless to my freezer.

Cleaning is so important and it is a pain because you can never skip it. I still use the hot soapy water in the bathtub method, then hit 'em with WD 40 afterwards. Never had any problems as long as I didn't forget to clean one.

 

[Mustang1911]

I've been using a Savage model 10ML smokeless powder muzzle loader and before that I was using a hand-me-down TC inline black powder muzzle loader. 2 big things I notice about the Savage: 1 - weight! It feels like it weighs about twice what a black powder muzzle loader weighs. 2 - it's cleaner! No huge cloud of smoke after firing and no ungodly amounts of crud caked everywhere after a couple of shots like with black powder.

I haven't ever seen MOA accuracy out of mine but I've never done any load development with it to try and get to that level. It's plenty accurate enough to keep your shot within the vital organs of a deer at 100 yards and probably further, I just haven't ever shot it further than 100 yards. As long as I do my part behind the trigger the rifle has never failed to do its part down range. The longest shot I've ever taken at a deer is just under a 100 yards and I sight it in at a 100 yards. I believe Savage advertised the muzzle velocity of one of their recommended loads to be just over 2,200 fps with a 250 grain slug and out to a 100 yards that will go clean through most deer unless you're going through both shoulder bones and even then I've seen it go clean through both shoulders on small to medium sized deer. Only down sides I see to it is the added weight over the black powder guns and having to carefully weigh and measure the powder charge versus buying 777 black powder pellets etc. As long as you're okay with those two things I'd recommend it.

Although its the same with any muzzle loader I've shot or hunted with, I wouldn't recommend them to small framed or recoil sensitive shooters because they kick like a mule. I'm 6'1" 250+ and don't consider myself to be very recoil sensitive so I'm fine with the recoil from them but not everybody is the same way. Recently I've thought about getting something different for firearms season, like a 44mag lever action, but I don't want to lose too much of the stopping power that I currently have from the muzzle loader just to have a repeating rifle with a contained cartridge. While a lever action or something similar would definitely be more fun to shoot in the off season, there's still something fun about forcing your self to make your one shot count with a muzzle loader.

 

[ru44mag]

I've been using a Savage model 10ML smokeless powder muzzle loader and before that I was using a hand-me-down TC inline black powder muzzle loader. 2 big things I notice about the Savage: 1 - weight! It feels like it weighs about twice what a black powder muzzle loader weighs. 2 - it's cleaner! No huge cloud of smoke after firing and no ungodly amounts of crud caked everywhere after a couple of shots like with black powder.

I haven't ever seen MOA accuracy out of mine but I've never done any load development with it to try and get to that level. It's plenty accurate enough to keep your shot within the vital organs of a deer at 100 yards and probably further, I just haven't ever shot it further than 100 yards. As long as I do my part behind the trigger the rifle has never failed to do its part down range. The longest shot I've ever taken at a deer is just under a 100 yards and I sight it in at a 100 yards. I believe Savage advertised the muzzle velocity of one of their recommended loads to be just over 2,200 fps with a 250 grain slug and out to a 100 yards that will go clean through most deer unless you're going through both shoulder bones and even then I've seen it go clean through both shoulders on small to medium sized deer. Only down sides I see to it is the added weight over the black powder guns and having to carefully weigh and measure the powder charge versus buying 777 black powder pellets etc. As long as you're okay with those two things I'd recommend it.

Although its the same with any muzzle loader I've shot or hunted with, I wouldn't recommend them to small framed or recoil sensitive shooters because they kick like a mule. I'm 6'1" 250+ and don't consider myself to be very recoil sensitive so I'm fine with the recoil from them but not everybody is the same way. Recently I've thought about getting something different for firearms season, like a 44mag lever action, but I don't want to lose too much of the stopping power that I currently have from the muzzle loader just to have a repeating rifle with a contained cartridge. While a lever action or something similar would definitely be more fun to shoot in the off season, there's still something fun about forcing your self to make your one shot count with a muzzle loader.

I don't plan to give up on my muzzle loaders. My longest shot on a whitetail was just under 120 yards with my inline "TC QLA I think." 90 grains Pyrodex and 245 grain Powerbelt on a very cold December morning. That rifle is scoped and I was turned around in my climbing tree stand, using the tree and the stand as a rest. The bullet blew clear through the ribs and knocked the little deer against a tree leaving a patch of blood a foot in diameter. She did not go far. In the 1990's the muzzle loader was the most accurate choice in my opinion, but the last several years I have been using 44 mag lever-actions for the most part. You won't notice a difference in power out to 100 yards. And it is nice if you want to take more than one deer in the same moment.

 

[randy68]

I use a CVA Apex with Blackhorn 209 and Barnes 250 gr TEZ. Very accurate and can shoot all you want without cleaning the barrel between shots. Just have to make sure and keep the breech plug flame channel cleaned out so you get good ignition. I think you can buy a breech plug designed for Blackhorn 209 to fit the Optima V2 so as to eliminate any problems with ignition. Mine is still original but I make sure it is clean. I shot a doe at 133 yards last year and dropped her where she stood. Any decent muzzleloader from CVA, TC, Traditions etc with the right load will get it done. Even the cheaper CVA wolf is known to be a real shooter. I haven't got a deer yet this year so my Apex is due up next.

 

[jspy5]

^^^^This.
My old-school TC Hawken doesn't have a removable breech plug, so I've always taken off the barrel, remove the nipple, and put it in a bucket of hot soapy water and go at it with a jag and a thick patch until it's clean. Then dry it off and swab the bore the TC bore butter and a light coat of 3 in 1 oil on the outside. That's worked for me for 30 years.

I don't shoot it much these days, but after I switched to bore butter, loading, shooting, and cleaning has been much easier.

I've always shot a patched round ball and iron sights and as long as I can continue to group small at 50 yards with that set-up, that gun will continue to be my go-to deer gun.

If I didn't know better I would have thought I had written this. I assembled one of those TC Hawken's from a kit they sold back in the early to mid '70's and used it exclusively for deer hunting until I replaced it with one of the more modern in-lines. I did however give up on the patched ball and went with the " poly patches" which seemed a lot easier for me to load.

 

[NKBJ]

Big thumbs up.
It's hard to beat a TC Hawken or Renegade for American made practical reliable shooting.
And, they're great platforms to improvise on with various bore diameters and twists. Too bad it gets to be so difficult to find percussion breech parts to fit them. And while I'm whining, TC didn't make the flinters in lefthand. Oh well!

My upcoming project is based on a TC Renegade, dubbed "Navarone".
Was searching through boxes and cobbling together parts last night for a scope mount to use in load development.
38" long percussion barrel, .52 bore, 28" twist. Got the off the shelf 450 and 515 grain rifle molds for paper patching and found a Lyman .515 ball mold as well for plinking. And, while the gentleman was cutting the rifling in the percussion barrel he also recut a neglected rusty Renegade flinter .50 barrel. The grooves are so shallow in the original TC barrels that it cleaned right up at .52. Got some serious fun coming!

 

[bulldogs42]

Savage 10ML-II is the best one out there, unfortunately Savage ceased production of it a couple years ago. If you can find one on gunbroker or at the gun show or a local shop, buy it. You won't be disappointed in the performance. It is the only one that you can use smokeless powder in.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

Those new CVA's are something else. So much tech crammed into one rifle. The breech plug is great!