My daughters problem

[INGunGuy]

There were a total of 5 children involved and here is how I understand it:

A boy brought in a bag of pills, eventually determined to be adderall. He gave the bag of pills to another girl. That girl then came up to my daughter and said hey look what "so-and-so" gave me, and handed my daughter a pill. My daughter looked at the pill and said no she didnt want it and gave it back. Then the girl gave 2 other students pills, one of the students took the pill then threw it away later, and the other student actually took the pill. So as for punishment. The student who brought the pills and the student who were passing them out went to juvenile detention. Then my daughter and the other 2 girls were each suspended for 5 days. That is where things stand at this time. I will continue to update everyone as I work thru the democratic process...

INGunGuy

 

[Bill of Rights]

InGunGuy,

Your daughter did a fine job and did nothing wrong! You have done an excellent job in raising her and teaching her to make positive choices in her life.

I feel the need in reading this and all of the good input from everyone here to encourage you to consider seeking a legal remedy to this problem.

Changing schools is an option, true. Putting her in a private school is an option, true. Homeschooling may be an option.

All of this is in her past. Yet, you must consider her future.

How many colleges will she apply to that may demand to see transcripts? How many universities may have a "Zero Tolerance" for prior drug issues?

No one here (myself included) can even begin to guess where things will go five (5) years from now when you daughter is 18 and looking into college admissions.

What could be worse are potential jobs in the future. While there are many companies today that do background checks we cannot tell where this will be in the future. As more and more of our lives become part of the digital age records of school suspensions and the reasons for such suspensions may be used against us just when we have done everything right. Even though we may have a perfectly good explanation for a past situation an employer may not want to take a chance on someone who has shown a propensity for drug possession. After all, she was accused by someone and that is sadly, oft times good enough.

I do hope everything works out for the best for her and your family. Whatever stress you are going through my you have my sympathy! Please explain to your daughter regularly that "NONE OF THIS IS HER FAULT!" Children can think and reason well, but they still blame themselves for problems the family goes through. Many children of divorce think that they somehow caused it, though nothing could be further from the truth.

Regards,

Doug

Good point, Doug.

IGG, you might want, (presuming you can't get this completely, totally, absolutely wiped from her record,) to get a letter from the principal AND the superintendent indicating the events. Make them put it in writing what happened and the exact circumstances of her suspension.

Still fight the fight, of course, but in the meantime, cover her tail end for the future.

Good luck and as always,
Blessings,
Bill

 

[DoctorJ32174]

Hire a local atty and sue!

 

[SavageEagle]

Wow. As a parent myself, that just makes me completely sick. I can't imagine the drama. I guess everything that could be said, has been said, so I'll just say...

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!!!

So I hope all goes well and I'm looking forward to any updates on the situation. Good luck and God Bless!!!!

 

[Libertarian01]

PrincipalSkinr,

Sir I agree with you that these potential damages have not yet occurred. My point was simply that they MAY occur, thus emphasizing the importance of fighting this here, now!

When I was in the Marine Corps I qualified for a top secret security clearance. I was told later that a nice man from "The Government" went to my school, walked my block, and contacted the parents of school friends. He did his job well tearing into my background and trying to dig up anything on me that might show me to be a security risk.

My concern is that five (5), ten (10) or even 20 years from now someone in this young ladies future might be doing a routine background check for some reason and find "suspended for possession of a controlled substance." And that IS ALL they will see. She may never even get the chance to discuss it, just a "Sorry, we hired someone else", or "Sorry, you did not qualify for the grant/student loan/position."

I know that all of these potential issues will probably never happen. She will probably go through her entire life without this ever causing a problem again. However that is no guarantee in an age where we cannot get a loan due to a credit score that no one can explain! The loan officer may know you; he may have worked with you for 30 years; he knows you are good for the money - BUT the Company Computer on the East Coast says you don't qualify: "Sorry!" Now look at how some large companies are doing employee screening.

We live in an era where the children being born today are automatically being entered into a variety of data bases and information warehouses that can be accessed by Lord only knows who.

I appreciate all the work people like yourselves do! Thank you for serving the community!!! I know that sometimes you see very stupid things that you wish you could change but do not have the power to alter. I know that sometimes you wish some lone parent would get ticked off enough to force you to change! I know that sometimes lawyers are actually a good thing!

Regards,

Doug

A couple of legal points. You can't seek relief from damages that have not yet occured, so the college thing is not possible because she hasn't been denied entry to a college. Besides, I've never experienced a college asking for transcripts from any grade level below high school, and they don't ask for discipline records. If they did ask, I can't imagine a school complying with the request. I know I'd go tell them to jump in a lake. In fact, as a middle school principal, I would not even give them access to a student's academic record.

What could get legal relief, is denial of her right to attend school, and any direct academic damage that caused. Beyond that, a lawyer would have to chime in. Here's the problem, though. Unfortunately, Zero Tolerance has been tested and upheld in courts across the land. If was voted on and made policy by the school board, then there's not much you can do. By sending your child to the school, you accepted the rules that were in place, even if some are ridiculous, like zero tolerance.

An attorney would be a better person from whom to receive legal advice, so all I offer here is experience, not legal advice.

 

[Libertarian01]

DoctorJ32174,

With this I disagree!

When going after the Govt I have found that you want to bring in an attorney who doesn't give a rats a** who he angers, ticks off, makes mad, etc etc etc. He will come in, fight like hell, and leave. He will NEVER have to stand in front of a local judge again!

Local attorneys have to stand in front of the same judges day in and day out. Their livelihood depends on them not rocking the boat too much. In the back of their minds they know that decisions in future cases can be influenced by what happens today. Suing private individuals or companies is no big deal, they come and go.

Suing any part of the government on the other hand can harm local communities budgets, and in the end this can roll downhill to the courts budget!

I have seen this with some bail lawsuits in the State of Indiana. You might think I am being paranoid or wearing tinfoil but until you see it in action it is hard to believe.

Regards,

Doug

Hire a local atty and sue!

 

[Hornett]

PrincipleSkinnr:
THANKS for weighing in.
Your first few posts:
Deep voice on
It's policy his hands are tied...
Maybe children should be coached that when their parents question them...
Deep voice off
Made me think you were OK with this policy.
But after rereading your posts I have come to realize that you agree with the outrage on this board. You are just trying to get people to not apply it to every single school.
Repped for that.

HOWEVER I have a problem with a couple of your thoughts

First:

Most schools do not have this silly policy. However, too many still do, and remember, it is the community who usually demands it or at least supports it. It is school boards who come up with this crap. I have yet to meet a principal who likes Zero Tolerance. If I met one, I'd wonder what was wrong with him or her.

You stated that the community wanted this a couple of times. Yes the community speaks out, but I guarantee you that they did not buy into a silly zero tolerance policy. They (I, We) really want a drug free campus. It's not Rachel's fault that she was in gym class where she belonged and some kid brought drugs in. The zero tolerance the community wants is no drugs on the campus. Not some silly possession rule. I am positive that the community does not want Rachel suspended.

In loco parentis. You can't tell the school they cannot question your child.

I think this is an issue with people on this board (at least it is with me) because teachers forget that kids are kids. They are children. They are simply no match for a college educated administrator in a suit that has them one on one in a closed room. That is an outrage. As a principal you should be demanding the parents be present. An unscrupulous administrator (obviously not you) in this position can get any answer out of a child that they want. In fairness any information recieved from such a situation should not even be admissable. IMHO

Thanks again for wading right in there.

 

[INGunGuy]

I received a response from Steve Stemler, who wants to meet with me soon to discuss Rachael's issue.

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!

I will continue to update what I find out more...

INGunGuy

 

[Hornett]

Oh yeah, I meant to say...

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!

too.

 

[Fargo]

I'm pretty sure you can't sue for damages that have yet to happen, though. That would be like me suing McDonald's for the heart attack I think I'm going to have for all the years I've eaten their French fries.

.

Calculating future damages can be done and is routinely done in injury cases and wrongful death cases. It is a matter of computing what the person would have earned, what the person would not have suffered, what the person would have been able to do etc. had the injury not occurred.

Of course causation and in many cases forseability must be proven, but that is a whole 'nuther story.

I'm not saying that it could be done in this case, but it isn't a blanket legal principle like you say it is.

Joe

 

[Libertarian01]

InGunGuy,

Good progress here. A few thoughts to ponder:

#1) Take a lawyer! I am not kidding. They have made this confrontational. Even IF you never sue, a lawyer in the room on your side shows them how seriously you are taking this affront and protects Rachaels rights.

#2) Baring the lawyer take a digital recorder and record the conversation. A lawyer may chime in but I do not believe you have to inform them that you are recording the conversation.

#3) Baring the lawyer/recorder take a notebook and write down what you are told and what you say. This gives a good record that can be used later in court should you decide to pursue justice through litigation.

#4) I have briefly reviewed the legal definition of "possession". While I am no lawyer it seems clear that with possession comes "intent." You may want to remind these chaps that your daughter never "possessed" drugs because she had no "intent" to possess them. Example: I put 100# of cocaine in your car without your knowledge for storage. Are you in possession of that cocaine? I think you could make an argument that you were never in possession because you never intended to possess it.

#5) If possible take your wife with you. I know that if I were in your shoes I would be a bit anxious about the meeting. You may forget to go into some detail deeper than you wanted. With your wife there she can cover some issues that may slip your mind or you didn't think of.

#6) Write down a LOT of questions you want to know about before you go into the meeting. This will help you control the meeting and keep focused on getting issues important to you resolved.

#7) Get the names of each newspaper, radio station, and tv station and the names of each reporter that you would normally see covering school/local events. Be ready potentially to do a press conference within a very short period of time (a day or two) while things are fresh in your memory to put pressure on them should things wind up unsatisfactory to you.

I am certain you have thought of most of these and some ideas can be dismissed by you for you own reasons. I put them out there as simple reminders and things I have learned in the past when dealing with situations such as these.

Good luck,

Doug

I received a response from Steve Stemler, who wants to meet with me soon to discuss Rachael's issue.

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!

I will continue to update what I find out more...

INGunGuy

 

[Indiana_Dave]

I probably wouldn't spend a whole lot of time convincing these people that they are idiots, but commend you and your daughter. She also learned a lesson about the realities of government bureaucracy and its absence of common sense.

 

[Tallenn]

^^ Lots of good advice, there

 

[mettle]

Hello all INGOers,

From day one, my wife and I have taught our children to say no to drugs. There are programs like D.A.R.E. that teach kids that drugs are bad. We tell them that if they see people doing drugs to say no. Schools have taught children to say no to drugs.

Well on Tuesday 02/23/2010 my 13 year old daughter was in gym locker room getting ready for gym class, when a fellow student came up to her told her look what so-and-so brought to me. She then handed my daughter a pill that was later determined to be an adderall pill. She looked at it, and put it back in the girls bag, and said no she didnt want it.


WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!!!

She went to gym class, and finished gym, went to her next class, and about halfway thru the class, the principal of the school came and took her to the office. He proceeded to question her about the incident, she told him what happened, and she remained in his office until the end of school which was about 30 minutes. The next day when she went to school, she was again brought down to the principals office this time to be questioned by the assistant principal. She explained what happened and was asked to fill out a "witness statement" which she did voluntarily. At that point, she was asked to wait in the counseling office. My wife was then called and told to come pick our daughter up because she was being suspended for 5 days because she was "in possession" of drugs on school property. My wife proceeded to the school, and talked with the assistant principal, and was basically told that because our daughter hand handled the pill she was technically "in possession" of drugs, and the policy was to suspend out daughter and require her to go to drug counseling before she would be allowed back into school.

I myself as a father, as well as EVERYONE else who has heard our story agree, that the message that this sends is absolutely incorrect, the message that this sends is that if you do drugs you will get into trouble, and if you say no to drugs, you will get into trouble, so if you are going to get in trouble whether you do drugs or say no, then you might as well do the drugs since you are going to get in trouble anyway....

My wife and I were told in no uncertain terms that this was school policy, and this zero-tolerance policy would be enforced.

Well I figured since they wanted to be very matter-of-fact, I called the school superintendents office, asked to speak with the superintendent, was told I would have to leave a message. I then received a call from the assistant superintendent, asking about my concerns. I told him that I was only going to speak with the superintendent, and said thank you very much, and goodbye, and hung up the phone. Not receiving a callback from the superintendent by about 1630 I called his office back, and was again directed to leave a message which I did. I then call my wife who I tell to contact the news media outlets. She contacted whas11 and wlky32 in Louisville, KY just across the river from us here in Jeffersonville. I then sent e-mails to the national coordinator for D.A.R.E. and the local coordinator for Indiana. I also e-mailed every reporter at wave3 in Louisville. Our story was picked up by wave3 and whas11 news and my wife and daughter were interviewed and was lead story on the 6PM news on 02/25/2010 on both stations. Unbelievable I think wow, our story is something that the news thinks people ought to know about.

Well I ask that you all watch to videos, they were also the front page of both the news websites.

WAVE3 Video

WHAS11 Video

I myself have contacted the Indiana superindendent of schools Tony Bennett, and was told by his office that this would be handled only by the local school district. I contacted the school board president, who was very helpful, and I thank him for his assistance. The national director for D.A.R.E. e-mailed me back to tell me that they are a prevention organization and not an enforcement organization, which made no sense to me. How about a call to the school principal, asking how come a student is being suspended for saying no to drugs? How about a call from the local chapter of D.A.R.E. to say:


WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!!!


So I dont really understand why I would get back the response I got, but I did e-mail back asking for clarification and have not yet received a response. -1 to D.A.R.E.

I received a call back from the school board president, who said that he could get a phone conference with myself and the school superintendent, Stephen Daschner. Well yesterday, Friday, I had that phone conference, and along with Stephen Daeschner, the assistant superintendent, we talked at length about my daughters situation, and quite honestly I can sum it up in just a couple of words, "She handled the pill, she was in possession, she will serve her suspension, period, explanation point, the end!" Oh but we will accept a letter from her pastor saying that she doesnt do drugs, he has talked to her and they will accept that instead of the drug counseling.

Well -1 to the Greater Clark County Schools My wife and I have talked at great length about taking our children out of the school system andhome schooling them. At least they would loose the federal bucks for 2 more children. But that is another story, and this post is already too long. I plan to pursue other avenues of opportunity, like my local city council person, mayor, other politicos in the chain. Just to put pressure on the schools that this kind of stuff is WRONG.

My daughter should have been awarded some kind of a D.A.R.E. award for saying no, but she is being punished for doing what the system asked her to do. The ONLY thing, and I mean the ONLY thing that I could even find any fault in her was why she didnt report the incident to the principal, and teacher immediately, well it didnt make any difference if she would have or not, because during the news interview of Marty Bell the COO of the school system, he said, that even if she would have reported it immediately she would have been suspended, because "she handled the drugs, so she was in possession". Well again, good job in making the school district look like fools.

Well I will post follow-ups as things progress, I hope that this story gets out as this is BS to the highest degree.

Thanks for listening...

INGunGuy and PROUD daddy to RACHAEL who by the way is dead on with her Remington 597!

Sounds like a new school is in order.

 

[Ramen]

#2) Baring the lawyer take a digital recorder and record the conversation. A lawyer may chime in but I do not believe you have to inform them that you are recording the conversation.

In Indiana only one individual in a conversation/discussion has to consent to the recorder. The others do not have to know about it or consent to it. This is assuming all parties are in the state, since some states require all parties to consent.

Taking the recorder is a great idea.

 

[INGunGuy]

I want to make sure that I am really clear about one thing, as for the School Board, which up to this point has been very understanding of my daughters trouble. The school board president backs me up that this punishment is unwarranted. I have already e-mailed every member of the school board, along with the superintendent and coo of the school district. For me to address the school board is an official way for me to bring the boards attention to a particular item. They then will meet about it along with the superintendent, and whoever else in the corporation. I will not receive any answer to my question at that meeting, that will come later. The meetings are all video and audio taped.

So up to this point, the ONLY people in the school district that agree with my daughters suspension are the superintendent, the assistant superintendent and coo, the principal and assistant principal. Ask anyone else, and they will say the punishment was unwarranted.

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!

INGunGuy

 

[theweakerbrother]

Bring your own audio recorder and possibly video. They might not relinquish requested copies if you need them.

 

[Bill of Rights]

InGunGuy,

Good progress here. A few thoughts to ponder:

#1) Take a lawyer! I am not kidding. They have made this confrontational. Even IF you never sue, a lawyer in the room on your side shows them how seriously you are taking this affront and protects Rachaels rights.

#2) Baring the lawyer take a digital recorder and record the conversation. A lawyer may chime in but I do not believe you have to inform them that you are recording the conversation.

#3) Baring the lawyer/recorder take a notebook and write down what you are told and what you say. This gives a good record that can be used later in court should you decide to pursue justice through litigation.

#4) I have briefly reviewed the legal definition of "possession". While I am no lawyer it seems clear that with possession comes "intent." You may want to remind these chaps that your daughter never "possessed" drugs because she had no "intent" to possess them. Example: I put 100# of cocaine in your car without your knowledge for storage. Are you in possession of that cocaine? I think you could make an argument that you were never in possession because you never intended to possess it.

#5) If possible take your wife with you. I know that if I were in your shoes I would be a bit anxious about the meeting. You may forget to go into some detail deeper than you wanted. With your wife there she can cover some issues that may slip your mind or you didn't think of.

#6) Write down a LOT of questions you want to know about before you go into the meeting. This will help you control the meeting and keep focused on getting issues important to you resolved.

#7) Get the names of each newspaper, radio station, and tv station and the names of each reporter that you would normally see covering school/local events. Be ready potentially to do a press conference within a very short period of time (a day or two) while things are fresh in your memory to put pressure on them should things wind up unsatisfactory to you.

I am certain you have thought of most of these and some ideas can be dismissed by you for you own reasons. I put them out there as simple reminders and things I have learned in the past when dealing with situations such as these.

Good luck,

Doug

Great suggestions, Doug... And IGG, if you do not have a digital recorder, I have one I will happily loan you for the purpose. Alternatively, Wal Mart has them for like $35.00 or so. I would not use a written record of events, however; it's too easy to misunderstand or worse, to be concentrating on getting it all written down verbatim when you need, IMHO, to be concentrating on Rachael's defense. Personally, I'd go with the attorney, the wife, AND the digital recorder, but I'd talk to the attorney about what to make sure to have on tape. And IIRC, IN law requires only one party to a conversation have knowledge of it... It might cause them to stop the meeting if they are told you're recording it or it might put them on their guard and sway them to "oh... um... Tell you what... why don't we just sweep this under the rug and forget the whole thing, heh heh heh <nervous sweat>" Hard to say which.

Thanks for keeping us all in the loop.
Praying for you all.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[INGunGuy]

I will be taking my own audio recorder to the meeting to tape. But the school district has all of the school board meetings videotaped and put on their web site.

But more good news, Senator Connie Sipes wants to speak with me about this now also.

So, I have Senator Sipes, and Representative Stemler wanting to discuss my daughters issues further.

I will keep everyone posted.

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!

 

[ar15junkie]

But more good news, Senator Connie Sipes wants to speak with me about this now also.

So, I have Senator Sipes, and Representative Stemler wanting to discuss my daughters issues further.

I think at very least you need to push for this to be removed from your daughters school record. As another has already posted this is not something she should have to pay for her entire life. Beyond that I would make sure she has an opportunity to complete her missed school work. Keep fighting the good fight.