My weekend carrying while in Chicago.

[INGunGuy]

This argument swings both ways yea know:

If a Network Engineer doesn't like the benefits that come with that job, well then quit, and find an LEO job if carrying everywhere is such a big deal. I am sick of non-LEOs complaining about how they can't carry guns everywhere, blah blah blah. I am sick and tired of saying it is a horrible thing that I get to protect myself and my family from danger that lurks around given my choose career field. Instead of complaining about LEOs carrying almost everywhere (which wasn't even the case until a very recent federal law change), why not work with groups to get your rights to carry recognized by other states? By the way, any state could easily file a lawsuit against the federal law, saying that it violates state rights, and I think they might win. They don't want to do this because most municipalities likely would welcome the help and knowledge that LEOs might be able to provide if need be.



We used the system with job related issues, just like you have, or likely would. What would you say if tomorow the law changed and it allowed for your employer to work you an extra 20 hours, with no extra pay? Or, what if they said that your employer had to pay you, but it was straight pay, no over-time? Using your logic, people shouldn't complain about anything, they should just quit, move, etc.. So I don't want to come back here reading a message from you where you are complaining about taxes...you should just stop working and paying taxes, or move to an area of the Earth where you are happy with their tax system. Oh, don't complain about gun control either, you are free to move to Somalia where you can OC a fully automatic AK-47 in urban areas.

See how your logic works? _Any_ complaint can be met with "well, just don't do that!" "just leave that area!" "Just move away!" "Just do it anyway!" Attacking the reason why LEOs just recently got nationwide carry is laughable. Focus your energy on having more states share permit reciprocity than attacking the reason LEOs go it.

So, just because you are a LEO, gives you the RIGHT to defend yourself and your family, and the rest of us NON-LEO slugs are just S**T Out of Luck. What the hell is that all about? Plus as the Supreme Court ruled, police have NO Constitutional duty to protect someone, ONLY to enforce the law. So, in your way of thinking, it's no big deal that I cant defend myself. I should wait until LEO gets "on scene" to clean up the mess left behind after myself or one of my family members is robbed/raped/murdered whatever. As for being able to carry with me, that is MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT, and how any state/federal government law can restrict that is beyond me.

And about the job, YES, that exact thing happened to me, I was told I would still have to work OT, and NOT get any extra pay for it, basically I went from hourly to salary with NO OT pay. I pissed and moaned, and took my grievance all the way up the "Chain of Command" and I was told it was up to the individual business as to if they wanted to pay OT or not, and that since I was a Network Engineer I no longer qualified for OT pay. Did I leave the job, almost, why because of the pay, I dont go to work for ANY other reason than the money, they stop paying, I stop working, PERIOD.

So my question to you, and any other LEO out there is this hypothetical situation, I am carrying and lets say on school property, a BG comes into the school, on the property, wherever, and because I am carrying, I am able to stop the BG from whatever they were going to do, or at least mitigate the situation from going from bad to worse, they start shooting students, and I shoot and take them out. WILL YOU ARREST ME? I would say, YES, even though I saved lives such as my own or others, and stopped a crazed killer, I am the one who will end up in jail, and most likely convicted of a felony because I carried into/onto school property. Does that sound good to you? I doubt it, but if you were the LEO called to the scene, I would still be just as under arrest as if I were the bad guy.

As fro changing laws, and getting nationwide reciprocity, well that was tried and failed, why because of the worthless legislators that are in DC now. I have attended TEA parties, and written my elected officials, and attended town hall meetings, but it doesnt do any good. So by the way I take it, what you are saying is to be able to defend myself and my family, wherever I happen to be, I MUST be a LEO, and that is just it, like it or not. Well sir, I respectfully disagree with you, and will until the day I die, just because my career path took me down the Network Engineering path, doesnt mean I have any less rights than you.

INGunGuy

 

[INGunGuy]

I understand what you are saying, but they are never really "off duty".

If that were the case, then why do I see LEO's, ALL THE TIME, with their families in the car, passing by someone broke down on the side of the road?
And are you also saying that by never being truly "off duty" that they are paid 24/7? If that is the case, lets break down the numbers, ok, a LEO makes $35000 a year and there are 8760 hours in a year, that makes a LEO's hourly wage $3.99 / hour well since that is way under the federal minimum wage of $7.25 we need to adjust the pay that our LEO's make to federal minimum wage since they are never truly "off duty" so lets see, $63510 would be the MINIMUM that a LEO would make since as you said, they are never truly "off duty"


INGunGuy

 

[smiley69_300]

I really dont want in the middle of all this. But I am a noob and have a dumb question. I am guessing that a LEO= Police Officer??

 

[Scutter01]

I really dont want in the middle of all this. But I am a noob and have a dumb question. I am guessing that a LEO= Police Officer??

LEO: Law Enforcement Officer

 

[smiley69_300]

LEO: Law Enforcement Officer

Now I really feel like a dumbass. But thanks scutter I appreciate it.

 

[Scutter01]

Now I really feel like a dumbass. But thanks scutter I appreciate it.

Don't feel dumb. If you don't know, you don't know. That's why INGO is here.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I am sick of non-LEOs complaining about how they can't carry guns everywhere, blah blah blah. I am sick and tired of saying it is a horrible thing that I get to protect myself and my family from danger that lurks around given my choose career field. Instead of complaining about LEOs carrying almost everywhere (which wasn't even the case until a very recent federal law change), why not work with groups to get your rights to carry recognized by other states? By the way, any state could easily file a lawsuit against the federal law, saying that it violates state rights, and I think they might win. They don't want to do this because most municipalities likely would welcome the help and knowledge that LEOs might be able to provide if need be.

I do complain that I can't carry when I go to watch my son perform for band at school but that a LEO can. Because in my eyes that is discrimination. I don't say that it is a horrible thing that you get to protect yourself and your family. I do say it is a horrible thing that other law abiding citizens cannot.

 

[Indy317]

So, just because you are a LEO, gives you the RIGHT to defend yourself and your family, and the rest of us NON-LEO slugs are just S**T Out of Luck. What the hell is that all about? Plus as the Supreme Court ruled, police have NO Constitutional duty to protect someone, ONLY to enforce the law. So, in your way of thinking, it's no big deal that I cant defend myself. I should wait until LEO gets "on scene" to clean up the mess left behind after myself or one of my family members is robbed/raped/murdered whatever. As for being able to carry with me, that is MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT, and how any state/federal government law can restrict that is beyond me.

As fro changing laws, and getting nationwide reciprocity, well that was tried and failed, why because of the worthless legislators that are in DC now. I have attended TEA parties, and written my elected officials, and attended town hall meetings, but it doesnt do any good. So by the way I take it, what you are saying is to be able to defend myself and my family, wherever I happen to be, I MUST be a LEO, and that is just it, like it or not. Well sir, I respectfully disagree with you, and will until the day I die, just because my career path took me down the Network Engineering path, doesnt mean I have any less rights than you.

You are telling LEOs to quit their job over a special privilege, but then you went on to complain about your job...yet never quit. If you honestly believed in your argument to us, you would have quit your job the next day, or at least immediately started looking for another job. Instead, you filed grievances all the way up the chain of command. Why? Isn't your own advice to LEOs good enough for you?

Well, LEOs had a grievance, and ours went up the chain of command and things changed for the benefit of LEOs. I am not sure why you hold such hostility against the LEO, when your anger should be directed at your elected representatives. You tell me and others to quit the job, yet when you had an issue in your job, you didn't quit, you complained. Why are you allowed to complain about something and not leave the job, but LEOs don't get the same consideration?

It if funny how so many folks complain about employers banning employees from taking guns to work, yet when LEOs complain that they need to be able to nationwide carry..we are told to quit the job, it isn't fair we get special rights, etc.. Well, if your employer doesn't allow for guns on their property, then quit...same argument.

Your attitude towards LEOs is interesting. To you, LEOs are the only profession where the people doing the job can't complain about anything, but everyone else is free to complain about their job. Whatever. Again, if this is that big of issue for you, become an LEO. I just read the law and the FOP FAQ/release about it. It sounds like even reserve officers can carry under the law. So all it takes is to donate your time to helping police your community, and you can be able to carry nationwide.

Again, using your "you should just quit" logic, you should just leave this country if you are upset with our gun laws. There are plenty of countries out there where you can buy full automatic AK-47s and the like, and carry them around in public.

I do complain that I can't carry when I go to watch my son perform for band at school but that a LEO can. Because in my eyes that is discrimination. I don't say that it is a horrible thing that you get to protect yourself and your family. I do say it is a horrible thing that other law abiding citizens cannot.

I agree, but I also think stomping your foot, screaming "discrimination", and then directing all that anger at LEOs and not at Congress is silly. The individual LEO had an issue. If folks are allowed to complain about work place conditions, not being able to bring guns to work in their cars, etc., then cops have the right to complain about possibly running into a person they put away in some other state and not being armed/able to defend themselves and their family. Yes, the cops get special treatment, but that doesn't mean I should have quit instead of trying to get the law changed.

I just find it funny that most of those saying all cops should have quit their job instead of lobbying Congress are the same group that want the state to pass a law mandating private companies and property owners to allow workers to bring guns to work. That is called being a hypocrite. Don't tell one group of people "If you don't like the working conditions, quit." and then turn around and tell another group of people "If you don't like the working conditions, lobby the government to do something about it."

 

[INGunGuy]

You are telling LEOs to quit their job over a special privilege, but then you went on to complain about your job...yet never quit. If you honestly believed in your argument to us, you would have quit your job the next day, or at least immediately started looking for another job. Instead, you filed grievances all the way up the chain of command. Why? Isn't your own advice to LEOs good enough for you?

Well, LEOs had a grievance, and ours went up the chain of command and things changed for the benefit of LEOs. I am not sure why you hold such hostility against the LEO, when your anger should be directed at your elected representatives. You tell me and others to quit the job, yet when you had an issue in your job, you didn't quit, you complained. Why are you allowed to complain about something and not leave the job, but LEOs don't get the same consideration?

It if funny how so many folks complain about employers banning employees from taking guns to work, yet when LEOs complain that they need to be able to nationwide carry..we are told to quit the job, it isn't fair we get special rights, etc.. Well, if your employer doesn't allow for guns on their property, then quit...same argument.

Your attitude towards LEOs is interesting. To you, LEOs are the only profession where the people doing the job can't complain about anything, but everyone else is free to complain about their job. Whatever. Again, if this is that big of issue for you, become an LEO. I just read the law and the FOP FAQ/release about it. It sounds like even reserve officers can carry under the law. So all it takes is to donate your time to helping police your community, and you can be able to carry nationwide.

Again, using your "you should just quit" logic, you should just leave this country if you are upset with our gun laws. There are plenty of countries out there where you can buy full automatic AK-47s and the like, and carry them around in public.



I agree, but I also think stomping your foot, screaming "discrimination", and then directing all that anger at LEOs and not at Congress is silly. The individual LEO had an issue. If folks are allowed to complain about work place conditions, not being able to bring guns to work in their cars, etc., then cops have the right to complain about possibly running into a person they put away in some other state and not being armed/able to defend themselves and their family. Yes, the cops get special treatment, but that doesn't mean I should have quit instead of trying to get the law changed.

I just find it funny that most of those saying all cops should have quit their job instead of lobbying Congress are the same group that want the state to pass a law mandating private companies and property owners to allow workers to bring guns to work. That is called being a hypocrite. Don't tell one group of people "If you don't like the working conditions, quit." and then turn around and tell another group of people "If you don't like the working conditions, lobby the government to do something about it."

I guess I figure that since you are a LEO, and you have special privileges that it doesnt matter to you that I cant defend myself or my family anytime or anywhere. Since you are part of the privileged class of people. And as I have stated before, my complaint is NOT with LEO's but with the fascist government that rules this country. We lobby, and lobby, and lobby, and NOTHING gets accomplished. Why do you think that is? I guess because I dont have deep enough pockets to get anything accomplished. And as I stated, and you have pointed out, sometimes when it comes to special privileges how would you feel if because I was a state employee that I didnt have to pay state taxes? Would you think that was fair, I guarantee no, and you would be *****ing and moaning as to how come a special few people dont have to pay state taxes, and you would lobby to change the law, and nothing would happen with your lobbying because of the same reason, deep pockets. I have NO problems with LEO's, but on the same token dont want the job because of what is entails. Same holds true for my wife, she is a paramedic, and I wouldnt do that job either. My problem as I have stated is being discriminated against. Blacks *****ed and moaned long enough that the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was enacted. So, because a person cant physically defend themselves should there be a Constitutional amendment enacted that allows people the ability to defend themselves by carrying firearms? Seems to me that the Second Amendment does just that, but since the federal government continues to enforce UNCONSTITUTIONAL federal law, then until such time as another UNCONSTITUTIONAL federal law allowing the carrying of firearms whenever and wherever then we as the civilian population will continue to be discriminated against because we choose to carry a handgun for self defense.

So before you take it again that I am anti-LEO, please be assured that I am NOT, what I am against is discrimination in ANY form.

INGunGuy

 

[Indy317]

I guess I figure that since you are a LEO, and you have special privileges that it doesnt matter to you that I cant defend myself or my family anytime or anywhere.

You know, nothing is stopping you from carrying anywhere you want except words on paper...for the most part. If you don't think there were cops carrying, illegally, in areas like Chicago, NYC, etc. prior to the law change, then you are sorely mistaken. It all goes back to the 'rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.' In 99% of the cases, going to another municipality and carrying a gun won't lead to your arrest. If your going out clubbing, getting drunk, going to places with metal detectors, OCing, printing _really_ bad, flashing the gun by wearing a shirt that doesn't fit..then yea, you would likely end up in jail. It does matter to me that you can't _legally_ defend yourself, so I have voted for people I think will help make a change in this. Am I supposed to quit my job in protest? I don't think so. Am I supposed to feel bad about it? I don't. It isn't like I have had this for decades, the law changed back in 2007 or thereabouts.

I would also like to ask what are _you_ doing, besides complaining about preferential treatment for LEOs to LEOs and telling LEOs they should have quit instead of try to change the law? Do you understand that one thing keeping Indiana's permit recognized in a lot more states is that our state offers no requirement for safety and proficiency? So instead of complaining to LEOs, why don't you complain to the state and demand they require us to take tests to get a carry permit?

Again, if you feel your rights are so violated here, up and move to Somalia. You can buy a fully automatic AK, even some RPGs, to protect you and yours. If you want to demand people make a change themselves, and quit or move, then follow your own advice.

Since you are part of the privileged class of people. And as I have stated before, my complaint is NOT with LEO's but with the fascist government that rules this country. We lobby, and lobby, and lobby, and NOTHING gets accomplished.

Have you been living under a rock for the last two decades? Look at the gif that shows how many states in this country have went to allowing citizens to carry guns outside their home:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/ZendoDeb/guns/Nebraska.gif

I can't believe you can sit there and "NOTHING" gets accomplished when it comes to the carrying of handguns. Not only has the above changed, but so has the ability to carry in IN State Parks, and National Parks (though there was a lawsuit, not sure of the outcome to date). Plus, we just had a Congressional vote on nationwide reciprocity. Yes it failed, but I don't recall the Congress voting on that every year, always having it go down in flames. In fact, this might have been the first time something like this was voted on. Nothing happens over-night, unless you want a country with a new quasi government every two years, constantly at war with militias trying to take control, etc..

My problem as I have stated is being discriminated against.

So before you take it again that I am anti-LEO, please be assured that I am NOT, what I am against is discrimination in ANY form.

You will always be discriminated against, no matter what, in this country. Right now, people are being discriminated because the law tells them they _must_ serve people regardless of skin color, religion, gender, etc.. This came about from civil rights laws. If you change those laws, and then allow business owners to discrimiate against others, then certain people are now the victims. What we have today is a system where people vote, choices are made. You sit there and act like nothing positive has come for carrying of handguns, yet we have documented proof that millions of people have gotten the right to carry over the last two decades.

Please, don't start using the second amendment and constitutional arguments. I never liked those things, as I believe all people in a free country are free. Using written documents like they are contracts is dangerous. Why? Because such instruments can, and almost always do, have clauses that allow for them to be changed. My guess is that every state constitution, as well as the US, can be amended following a set of procedures. What would your argument be if these contracts were amended to ban the possession of arms? I guess you would just roll over...as now your constitutional argument is DOA.

This goes back to the whole argument that one has the choice to be judged by 12 or carried by six. Every human has a choice, and while the government unit may say some things are wrong, the fact is there are millions of people who will stand behind you. If you want to know what _might_ happen to you, just get on Google and search Chicago self defense shooting and see what pops up. Research cases where people were busted in NYC/Chicago with illegal guns only _after_ they shot someone in self-defense. See if they really had charges pressed, follow up with the outcome (where charges dropped fully, dropped to a petty fine, etc.)? Obviously people in Chicago and NYC are still going to carry, and defend themselves when need be. They don't take your argument that they should move away, or quit their job, etc...they just make a personal choice to ignore the law. They make that choice knowing the consequences of their actions. Some people will sit around and write posts on the internet about how unfair the laws are. Some people won't care what the government says, and thumb their nose at the law. They do so weight the probabilities and ready for the consequences should they get caught.

 

[public servant]

Blacks *****ed and moaned long enough that the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was enacted.

 

[Denny347]

I guess they didn't like being slaves...the nerve of them.

 

[public servant]

I guess they didn't like being slaves...the nerve of them.

I'm hoping I just misunderstood...

 

[INGunGuy]

I'm hoping I just misunderstood...

I was all messed up, and I apologize for spouting crapola. The 13th was abolishing slavery, but all the civil rights legislation is what finally gave blacks the SAME rights as everyone else. Well just like the right to carry, why should a person who cant defend themselves not be permitted the right to carry wherever and whenever?

Sorry for spouting crap.

INGunGuy

 

[Denny347]

I was all messed up, and I apologize for spouting crapola. The 13th was abolishing slavery, but all the civil rights legislation is what finally gave blacks the SAME rights as everyone else. Well just like the right to carry, why should a person who cant defend themselves not be permitted the right to carry wherever and whenever?

Sorry for spouting crap.

INGunGuy

Ha, no problem. I didn't figure you meant what it sounded like. Just bust'n chops.

 

[INGunGuy]

Ha, no problem. I didn't figure you meant what it sounded like. Just bust'n chops.

Yea I know...

INGunGuy

 

[OldFaithful]

This is one of the reasons I don't go to Illinois, if I can avoid it...especially Chicago! It feel just like going to Russia, which I have done. Actually though, I felt safer in Russia than I do in Chicago!

 

[El Cazador]

Not to get in the middle of all this, but is the threat of retribution from the sorry flotsam LEOs deal with a common risk? I have to admit, my experiences and conversations are with deputies out here in the hinterlands, and I don't think that's a big worry. Meth heads and cookers can't remember past the end of their nose, and they're probably the worst the deputies deal with...with a few notable exceptions, I'd imagine.

 

[Indy317]

Not to get in the middle of all this, but is the threat of retribution from the sorry flotsam LEOs deal with a common risk?

The few homeless I have arrested I have seen downtown, but that is really, really rare. However, I recently banned someone from the property for their inappropriate actions towards others. Didn't say anything to me, just left. Well, about a month later, I am at a mall, and I see the exact same person. He is looking at me, I look right at him. It took a few seconds to think "Where do I know this person from?" After I had passed him, I remembered my involvement with him. By this time, I am well past where he was sitting. I decide to look back, and he is staring right at me. That instance reminded me why I try to carry 24/7.

 

[Denny347]

Not to get in the middle of all this, but is the threat of retribution from the sorry flotsam LEOs deal with a common risk? I have to admit, my experiences and conversations are with deputies out here in the hinterlands, and I don't think that's a big worry. Meth heads and cookers can't remember past the end of their nose, and they're probably the worst the deputies deal with...with a few notable exceptions, I'd imagine.

Maybe Hendricks Co Deputies don't normally arrest more than those types. I've arrested murders, rapists, armed robbers. etc and sometimes it is hard to know if I run across them while I'm off. There are too many arrests for me to remember all their faces. I just watch my six ALL the time and look for anyone mean mugging me.